Marian Dogma

[Nickkname]

I was not aware that some say that “the Rosary is mandatory for salvation.”

What type of ‘hyperbole in spritual writings’ and which devotions of some Catholics are excessive, in your opinion?

Ah, I see you haven’t met the so-called “Fatimaists”. To explain them: A Fatimaist is, in general, someone who has a devotion to Our Lady of Fatima. But, in the stricter and darker sense, it means someone who has a radical devotion to Mary, though it dosen’t necessarily have to be connected to the apparitions of Fatima, and, basically believes that the Rosary is absolutely necessary for salvation.

Hyperbole is the “poetry of Christian writers”, so to speak. Saint Louis de Montfort used a lot of it in his writings when he spoke about Mary. He didn’t lie about her, nor overexaggerate the truths about her, but rather, he used a lot of pretty imaginery and words that hit the heart to make his writings more appealing to the soul and well up inside the soul a deep and powerful devotion and love for Our Lady. An instance of this is when, in his book “Secret of the Rosary,” he uses an account of exorcism he attributes to Saint Dominic, who, by invoking the intercession of Mary, had sucessfully exorcised a possessed person. By this account the saint (Montfort) means to show that Mary has authority over all things in virtue of her Queenship. Another and less dramamtic instance of hyperbole is when he says all of hell trembles before the Queen.

 

[maurin]

Ah, I see you haven’t met the so-called “Fatimaists”. To explain them: A Fatimaist is, in general, someone who has a devotion to Our Lady of Fatima. But, in the stricter and darker sense, it means someone who has a radical devotion to Mary, though it dosen’t necessarily have to be connected to the apparitions of Fatima, and, basically believes that the Rosary is absolutely necessary for salvation.

yes, that is true, I have not encountered ‘Fatamaists’ in the “stricter and darker sense.”

Thank you for clarifying the difference between the Dogmas and the extremes which mix error with Truth.

Hyperbole is the “poetry of Christian writers”, so to speak. Saint Louis de Montfort used a lot of it in his writings when he spoke about Mary. He didn’t lie about her, nor overexaggerate the truths about her, but rather, he used a lot of pretty imaginery and words that hit the heart to make his writings more appealing to the soul and well up inside the soul a deep and powerful devotion and love for Our Lady. An instance of this is when, in his book “Secret of the Rosary,” he uses an account of exorcism he attributes to Saint Dominic, who, by invoking the intercession of Mary, had sucessfully exorcised a possessed person. By this account the saint (Montfort) means to show that Mary has authority over all things in virtue of her Queenship. Another and less dramamtic instance of hyperbole is when he says all of hell trembles before the Queen.

So, hyperbole is a literary tool in the cases you site above which help to enlighten the Faithful and do convey Religious Truth?

 

[RyanML]

Hi RyanML,

I would like to ask you what you mean by Marian Devotion “taken to extremes as much as may be seen among Roman Catholic faithful.” Are you referring to the Dogmas themselves, or are you referring to unapproved excesses? And if it is the latter, could you refer to what kinds of excesses?

thank you for your help,

maurin

All Marian devotion must be Christocentric. Any devotion would be excessive and even wrong if it did not have as its goal a more perfect union with the Holy Trinity.

 

[Nickkname]

yes, that is true, I have not encountered ‘Fatamaists’ in the “stricter and darker sense.”

Thank you for clarifying the difference between the Dogmas and the extremes which mix error with Truth.

So, hyperbole is a literary tool in the cases you site above which help to enlighten the Faithful and do convey Religious Truth?

Not so much enlighten and convey truth as impress devotion and love into the soul. A secular instance of hyperbole would be if a husband calls his wife “my sun, my life, my only desire.” It would not be idoltry, but, rather imagery used to express emotion and devotion. Religiously, hyperbole is used to impress devotion into the soul and make them fall in love with the object of devotion, and truths are used to show the greatness of the object of devotion. A Hallmark card depicting the Nativity would be another instance of religious hyperbole.

 

[RyanML]

I have also always found the medieval concept of God as a stern and just judge with Mary as the merciful mother a bit excessive as well. It would seem to imply that our best hope of getting in good with God is to go through Mary. I prefer to see the communion of saints as a family with Mary as our Mother who walks with us, helps us, and prays with us on our journey of growing in holiness and more intimate union with God.

 

[Nickkname]

I have also always found the medieval concept of God as a stern and just judge with Mary as the merciful mother a bit excessive as well. It would seem to imply that our best hope of getting in good with God is to go through Mary. I prefer to see the communion of saints as a family with Mary as our Mother who walks with us, helps us, and prays with us on our journey of growing in holiness and more intimate union with God.

It’s not a medieval concept, it’s a secular concept. The Church has always believed God to be the Father of mercies and Mary as the motherly Queen of Heaven.

 

[maurin]

I have also always found the medieval concept of God as a stern and just judge with Mary as the merciful mother a bit excessive as well. It would seem to imply that our best hope of getting in good with God is to go through Mary. I prefer to see the communion of saints as a family with Mary as our Mother who walks with us, helps us, and prays with us on our journey of growing in holiness and more intimate union with God.

I have not been exposed to any medieval conceptions of God as a stern and just judge with Mary as the merciful mother. Rather, in my readings and studies of the Church’s Teachings in the Middle Ages–which are admittedly NOT extensive, but maybe even merely cursory-- I have found God to be presented as both merciful and just as well as stern. Does the Church not present God so as do the Scriptures?

Could you cite some examples?

I ask because it would seem that the implication may possibly be that the Church’s Teachings change.

 

[maurin]

It’s not a medieval concept, it’s a secular concept. The Church has always believed God to be the Father of mercies and Mary as the motherly Queen of Heaven.

better stated–we posted at the same time, and I deleted my response as yours said in a few words what took me two paragraphs.

 

[Sam_Maloney]

It’s not a medieval concept, it’s a secular concept. The Church has always believed God to be the Father of mercies and Mary as the motherly Queen of Heaven.

Ahhh, but while it may not be doctrine, it is still sadly common among Catholics who would style themselves orthodox and devout: I’ve enountered it a lot with my friends and family who’ve been to Medjugorje.

I seem to remember that Mary staying God’s anger was part of those ‘visions’, at least at one point.

 

[RyanML]

It’s not a medieval concept, it’s a secular concept. The Church has always believed God to be the Father of mercies and Mary as the motherly Queen of Heaven.

I was thinking of some of what I have read in the Glories of Mary. St. Alphonsus quotes St. Bonaventure as saying: “If thou fearest, on account of thy sins, that an angry God may wish to avenge himself upon thee, what art thou to do? Go to the hope of sinners, namely, Mary; and if thou fearest that she will refuse to take thy part, know that she cannot refuse to defend thy cause, for God himself has assigned her the office of relieving the wretched”.

Again from the Glories of Mary: …“the Lord who hath constituted thy Son mediator of peace between God and man, has at the same time made thee (Mary) mediatrix between the judge and the criminal.” And quoting St. Bernard: "Give then thanks to him who has provided thee with such a mediatrix. Whoever thou art, oh sinner, plunged in the mire of guilt, hoary in sin, do not despair; thank thy Lord, who in order to show mercy to thee, has not only given thee his Son for an advocate, but, to increase thy confidence and courage, has provided thee with such a mediatrix, who, by her prayers, obtains whatever she wishes. Have recourse to Mary, and thou wilt be saved.

Does this seem a bit over the top? Is all this just hyperbole? Am I missing the point?

 

[I_Believe]

All Marian devotion must be Christocentric. Any devotion would be excessive and even wrong if it did not have as its goal a more perfect union with the Holy Trinity.

Hi Ryan,
I’d think that is the goal no matter how intense the devotion in an individual.

Most devotion I’ve seen described as excessive, I would simply call pious. To someone who doesn’t pray the Rosary, then they might see the practice of praying all fifteen decades of the Dominican Rosary daily as being excessive, when in truth it’s simply a level of piety in an individual. Nothing more, nothing less.

Frankly, I can’t think of a single Marian devotion that excludes acknowledgement to Christ and God the Father. And to acknowledge them, is to also acknowledge the Trinity itself, for they are one.

Look at the Rosary. Before a single Ave, we invoke the Trinity, recite the Creed, and the Lord’s prayer. Each decade is pre-empted by the Lord’s Prayer and followed by the Glory be.

Just my opinion, but I just don’t think it’s possible to be excessive as far as one’s level of piety and devotion.

 

[RyanML]

Hi Ryan,
I’d think that is the goal no matter how intense the devotion in an individual.

Most devotion I’ve seen described as excessive, I would simply call pious. To someone who doesn’t pray the Rosary, then they might see the practice of praying all fifteen decades of the Dominican Rosary daily as being excessive, when in truth it’s simply a level of piety in an individual. Nothing more, nothing less.

Frankly, I can’t think of a single Marian devotion that excludes acknowledgement to Christ and God the Father. And to acknowledge them, is to also acknowledge the Trinity itself, for they are one.

Look at the Rosary. Before a single Ave, we invoke the Trinity, recite the Creed, and the Lord’s prayer. Each decade is pre-empted by the Lord’s Prayer and followed by the Glory be.

Just my opinion, but I just don’t think it’s possible to be excessive as far as one’s level of piety and devotion.

When I say excessive, I mean to say devotion that gives to Mary more power or authority than God has given to her. I believe the Rosary is the most perfect of Marian devotions because it expresses the Church’s faith about Mary so well. I wish I could pray 15 or 20 decades of the Rosary everyday! Well…I probably could, I just need the spiritual stamina! The essence of true devotion to Mary is to be like her. I always ask her to help me live that my soul, like hers, will magnify the Lord.

 

[I_Believe]

When I say excessive, I mean to say devotion that gives to Mary more power or authority than God has given to her. I believe the Rosary is the most perfect of Marian devotions because it expresses the Church’s faith about Mary so well. I wish I could pray 15 or 20 decades of the Rosary everyday! Well…I probably could, I just need the spiritual stamina! The essence of true devotion to Mary is to be like her. I always ask her to help me live that my soul, like hers, will magnify the Lord.

Fair enough. I still believe it to be simply a percieved notion that very many folks meet that definition of excessive.

Now I will say that there are those who have elevated her to Goddess status, at which point they cease to become Christians.

Off to work,
God Bless

 

[Dauphin]

The doctrine is true and is denied even by some Catholics. That’s enough reason to define it as dogma - in order to clarify a contentions issue and confirm Catholics in the truth.

Protestant polemicists will always slander the Church. We shouldn’t be worried about them getting even more vociferous.

Regarding people who might be turned off from conversion, we have to rely on the Holy Spirit to confirm this truth. We can’t be afraid to proclaim truth simply because it might turn some people off.