Marian dogmas: important and essential for our salvation?

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I’m not certain, but I believe that the ‘rapture’ (please excuse me, but this is from what I have been told; I could be wrong) involves more of an ‘instant resurrection’ than an assumption as I understand the Catholic explanation of Mary’s Assumption is.

If we are talking about that instant resurrection/change from mortal to resurrected state, I don’t know anybody who denies that Mary was not worthy–just that it did not happen.

I do believe that most Protestants (who actually believe in a physical resurrection…some don’t…) believe that Mary will, at the very least, be among the ‘first fruits,’ if not #1 on the list.

The problem, I repeat, isn’t one of worthiness–of course she was. The problem is–where is the evidence that it happened?
My comment was really not about the Rapture (of which the concept makes me roll my eyes, to be honest). So I can’t get into the details–but I will say that the Rapture and an Assumption are of a similar paradigm. While a Resurrection is of one’s own power, an Assumption is through the power of God. Clearly, the Rapture is not a resurrection but an assumption.

As for evidence of Mary’s Assumption, how about not a single relic of her exists?
 
This might seem like an off topic question but It isn’t really it may help mere Christians put the Mary dogmas in perspective.

Has the Catholic Church added any new dogmas/doctrines about Jesus that are not already in the Bible? Ones that are important for our salvation?
The Doctrines of the Church precede the Bible, and are the source material from which the Bible was created.

So, the fact that something may or may not be explicitly mentioned in the Bible has nothing to do with whether it is a lawful teaching of the Church. It is the Councils of the Church that defined both the teachings of the Church, and the contents of the Bible. 🙂
 
Absolutely right.

However, Christianity >Catholicism.

(or however one expresses relationships in Venn diagrams…)

Christianity encompasses Catholicism, but Catholicism does not encompass Christianity.
Hahaha, no 😃

Your claim is like saying Great Britain is a part of the greater British Empire.

From history’s perspective, the story and scope of Catholicism has always been the whole of Christianity.
 
The key word is “seem.” I’m simply saying for anyone, be they devotees of Mary or not, are these essential?
The Church tells us “Yes.” I thought we had established that. :confused:

I thought you were looking for a reason why you should trust the Church. 🤷
 
My comment was really not about the Rapture (of which the concept makes me roll my eyes, to be honest). So I can’t get into the details–but I will say that the Rapture and an Assumption are of a similar paradigm. While a Resurrection is of one’s own power, an Assumption is through the power of God. Clearly, the Rapture is not a resurrection but an assumption.

As for evidence of Mary’s Assumption, how about not a single relic of her exists?
…so…your evidence for her Assumption is a complete and utter lack of evidence that she wasn’t?

…as to relics—there are quite a few people/things that didn’t leave any, y’know. The fact that we can’t find her mortal remains is not even evidence, nevermind proof, that something as extraordinary as the Assumption happened.

I do understand why you believe it, I really do. I’m simply pointing out that there is absolutely no evidence to support it.

On the other hand, if you ARE talking about a sort of instant resurrection–a ‘twinkling of an eye’ change from mortal to exalted immortal body, I actually have no problem with the idea that Mary might have experienced that.

It’s just that…there isn’t any evidence of it!!! Nobody saw it, nobody reported it, nothing! The idea is coming from a sense of 'she was worthy of it" (no objection from me on that one) so she must have been.

So what’s happening here is that Catholicism has made into dogma that is essential for salvation, an idea that began as, frankly, wishful thinking. Of course she would have deserved such a reward.

…but…did it happen?
 
Hahaha, no 😃

Your claim is like saying Great Britain is a part of the greater British Empire.

From history’s perspective, the story and scope of Catholicism has always been the whole of Christianity.
so…my Baptist neighbors are not Christian?
Russian Orthodoxy?
Eastern Orthodox?
Episcopalians?
Methodists?
Lutherans?
Presbyterians?
 
.
It’s just that…there isn’t any evidence of it!!! Nobody saw it, nobody reported it, nothing!
St. Thomas reported it, and so did St. John. The problem is that people re-interpret what they said to mean anything except what they plainly say.
 
This might seem like an off topic question but It isn’t really it may help mere Christians put the Mary dogmas in perspective.

Has the Catholic Church added any new dogmas/doctrines about Jesus that are not already in the Bible? Ones that are important for our salvation?
Hard to answer because you have included both doctrines and dogmas with at least three separate qualities:
  1. New
  2. Not in the Bible
  3. Important for our salvation.
I would say that none of the dogmas are new, although there are many dogmas that were not recognized as dogmatic until relatively recently. Many, many dogmas and doctrines are not in the bible. I don’t think any of them are necessary to salvation, although others would differ on that. Whether they are important to salvation or not is a much more difficult question. I would dodge the question somewhat by saying that it is important that one learn enough of God to learn to approach Him and open oneself to His Grace. The doctrines and dogmas are important to the extent that they help each individual to do that.
 
Hahaha, no 😃

Your claim is like saying Great Britain is a part of the greater British Empire.

From history’s perspective, the story and scope of Catholicism has always been the whole of Christianity.
Since your definition is not a universal definition, I suggest you start a FACEBOOK page/campaign to get the definition of Christian corrected, from the below std def.

1a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
1b (1) : disciple 2 (2) : a member of one of the Churches of Christ separating from the Disciples of Christ in 1906 (3) : a member of the Christian denomination having part in the union of the United Church of Christ concluded in 1961
2: the hero in Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress
 
so…my Baptist neighbors are not Christian?
Russian Orthodoxy?
Eastern Orthodox?
Episcopalians?
Methodists?
Lutherans?
Presbyterians?
Insofar as they partake of the teachings of the Catholic Church, they are, in a mystical way, Catholic. But they are separated from the visible Church at present due to heresy and schism within their communities.

So, in a nutshell, yes, they are Christian as far as they partake of what Christ established, which is the Catholic Church.
 
…so…your evidence for her Assumption is a complete and utter lack of evidence that she wasn’t?
It’s the same as the evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection. If the bones of Our Lord were ever found then Christianity would be proven false.

But, I believe in Mary’s Assumption 'cause my Mama, Holy Mother Church, told me so!

Just like you believe that the Letter of Titus is inspired–not because of any evidence in and of itself–because my Mama told you so!

.
 
…as to relics—there are quite a few people/things that didn’t leave any, y’know. The fact that we can’t find her mortal remains is not even evidence, nevermind proof, that something as extraordinary as the Assumption happened.
The early Church kept the bones, hair, clothes, and personal possessions of every Apostle and every Martyr, both male and female - yet nothing exists of Mary except her house and her comb. No bones, no hair, no clothes.

Where did they go? 🤷
 
Well obviously the Church says YES. We knew that at the onset of this discussion on the OP, right? That wasn’t the question. The question is WHY? I fail to see why the shrug?
The Church tells us “Yes.” I thought we had established that. :confused:

I thought you were looking for a reason why you should trust the Church. 🤷
 
Faith and certitude go together…and it is a matter of trusting the Holy Spirit at work in the Church, not men.

a priest told me to listen to what he says, but not what he does…He began as a chaplain to the orphans of the city. When he had his own parish of 34 years, a parishioner told me he told some guys to go to hell who were doing some bad things in his neighborhood time…I was in shock. Guess he was human.

The mission of salvation convinces me of Mary’s perpetual virginity…why she would go off and create another household with a different constitution does not make sense.
 
Knowing about Paul makes us closer to Jesus, too, and knowing about Lazarus, knowing about Martha and Mary and Mary Magdalene, and Peter and on and on…knowing more about how Jesus interacts with people does indeed teach us more about Him. No argument there. But can I get to heaven without reading the Bible and knowing about these folks? Can I get to heaven without knowing how Jesus interacted with Mary? Is Mary so essential that I can’t truly know Christ without knowing her? The Scriptures don’t point to such a conclusion even remotely?
Because knowing the truth about Mary brings us closer to Jesus. 🙂
 
I’m not certain, but I believe that the ‘rapture’ (please excuse me, but this is from what I have been told; I could be wrong) involves more of an ‘instant resurrection’ than an assumption as I understand the Catholic explanation of Mary’s Assumption is.

If we are talking about that instant resurrection/change from mortal to resurrected state, I don’t know anybody who denies that Mary was not worthy–just that it did not happen.

I do believe that most Protestants (who actually believe in a physical resurrection…some don’t…) believe that Mary will, at the very least, be among the ‘first fruits,’ if not #1 on the list.

The problem, I repeat, isn’t one of worthiness–of course she was. The problem is–where is the evidence that it happened?
The evidence is in the actual experience of the Church. The Bible is not, and cannot, be likened to an encyclopedia where everything is written down and outside of which there is nothing else. To accept the 27 books of the New Testament is also to accept the judgement of the Church that canonized it. The oral, handed-down Tradition of the Church also contains events and teachings that are not in the NT, except, perhaps, by way of imagery or suggestion. In any event, the early Christians would have entirely mistrusted written documents (unlike today’s culture) so the fact that things occurred in the experience of the Church and were handed down in the Church’s liturgy and teachings, but are not in the canon of the NT, does not invalidate the latter.

It would be helpful, however, if you, sir, could also speak to the “grounds” of your own faith. Yes, we only accept the Scripture as a valid “document” between us. But Catholic Tradition provides the interpretive key to the Scripture. Without that key, Scripture is open to more than one interpretation which, in the Protestant world, has led to many denominations. It has also led to a number of denominations stemming from the 19th century or so I’ve heard!

What is the Mormon key of interpretation of the New Testament? That would help us all here understand where you and our friend Todd are coming from. We know that you are coming from somewhere. Don’t leave us surmising - be forthright and explain how the Mormons interpret the Bible, it’s role in your Church etc.

Let’s leave this nonsense of taking Scripture on its own and apart from the wider context of the Tradition in which it was formed and which allows the Church and us to understand it in the way God wishes us to understand it.

Let’s remember that the Lutherans thought that if they separated “papal tradition” from the Scriptures, then everyone would agree with their interpretation of the Bible. The Anabaptists didn’t think so however. We all have our own tradition in interpreting the Scripture and we all don’t stop there when we formulate our understanding of the Christian faith. So let’s drop it, why don’t we?

Alex
 
I think it goes to the fact that I am driving in the son with my car…and he is going through his search for meaning in life as a freshman in college, where he doesn’t believe either.

I told him this summer, our faith in Jesus as God is not a statue or an altar per se…but the fact that He became one of us…Christ became a human being for us…God among us…I told my son I had received Holy Communion that day…and that the Lord God was travelling with us in the car…not some far away deity.

All this part of the mission…Jesus a number of times calling himself the Son of Man…more than the Son of God…

Why did Jesus refer to himself more as Son of Man vs Son of God?

I like this priest’s reflection…so that God could come into not just my car through the Eucharist that day travelling with my son, but He came as God united through human means of eating and drinking the Eucharist, to enter into the very depths of my soul.

As the priest said, our DNA is essentially written up to receive the Son of Man.

How did it happen? Mary.
 
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