Marian Teachings in East and West

[Palamas]

No, Armenia was. Would please give the name of the Orthodox bishops who supported the doctrine of the immaculate conception.
Thanks

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

No, Armenia was. Would please give the name of the Orthodox bishops who supported the doctrine of the immaculate conception.
Thanks

It was in the 17th and 18th centuries, in the Kyivan Church: the Kyivan Academy promoted the doctrine. I could be wrong, but I believe the following Orthodox saints believed in the Immaculate Conception: Dimitri of Rostov, who established a Brotherhood of the Immaculate Conception. Another example (this one is a bishop) is St. Peter Mogila.

So it was a Baroque-era Ukrainian Orthodox thing.

As with many other issues, on the Immaculate Conception the West and the East are mostly just talking past each other. I blame the way the dogma was defined in exclusively western, Augustinian terms in 1854, and also the fact that many in the east (through no fault of their own) misunderstand what the Latins mean by “original sin,” which puts them at a terminological disadvantage when understanding the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as defined by Pope Pius IX.

 

[theistgal]

The term Byzantine is not used by the Orthodox Church and has not been used by the Orthodox Church at any time in its history to identify the Orthodox Church.

You need to talk to your fellow Orthodox about that, as a simple Google search for “Byzantine Orthodox” turns up tons of references like this:

**Faithful to the Truth: A Byzantine Orthodox Viewpoint **(homepage.ntlworld.com/pharseas.world/Axios.html)

Skete.com: Orthodox Byzantine icons (skete.com/)

multiple YouTube videos described as “Byzantine Orthodox” chant, etc.

 

[couponfit]

The Immaculate Conception is an infallibly defined dogma, binding on all Catholics. Just sayin’.

Just remember our Hail Mary, which contains the mystery of both rites:

“Hail Mary Full of Grace the Lord is with thee blessed is thou…”

“Holy Mary Mother of God…”

So which is it? The answer is both!

 

[Palamas]

The Orthodox Church believes in both. We believe the Theotokos is full of grace. The question is when did she become full of grace. For us, it begins at the annunciation and acceptance of her pregnancy. The fact that the phrase “full of grace” was uttered by St. Mary while visiting St. Elizabeth, after St. Mary had become pregnant, seems to indicate that the fullness is the result of having the Son of God in your womb.

 

[Palamas]

Does the Roman Catholic Church believe St. Mary died like any other human? The Orthodox Church does believe she died, even though we say she fell asleep in the Lord, and call the feast of the falling asleep of the Theotokos the dormition of Mary.

 

[poripl]

VirtualWorkforceAsia aims to bring together skilled and talented virtual workers from Asia, and employers from Australia and New Zealand, for the benefit of all parties.
Most virtual workers look to the USA and Canada for opportunities – often at great cost to their social and family life because they become night workers. Australia, and to a lesser extent, New Zealand are geographically AND chronologically Asian. This gives Asian virtual workers the option of working during their day so that they have time for family and friends!
Add to that the strength of the Australian economy – complete with a well documented skills shortage, and it is obvious that both workers and employers stand to gain by forging ties.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Does the Roman Catholic Church believe St. Mary died like any other human? The Orthodox Church does believe she died, even though we say she fell asleep in the Lord, and call the feast of the falling asleep of the Theotokos the dormition of Mary.

There is no officially binding teaching on whether or not she died.

I personally believe she did, probably for the same reasons you do.

 

[dvdjs]

The Orthodox Church believes in both. We believe the Theotokos is full of grace. The question is when did she become full of grace. For us, it begins at the annunciation and acceptance of her pregnancy. The fact that the phrase “full of grace” was uttered by St. Mary while visiting St. Elizabeth, after St. Mary had become pregnant, seems to indicate that the fullness is the result of having the Son of God in your womb.

1. FYI

Luke 1:39-56 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
39And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda.
40And she entered into the house of Zachary, and saluted Elizabeth.
41And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
45And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.
46And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.
47And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.
50And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.
51He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
52He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.
53He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
54He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy:
55As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.
56And Mary abode with her about three months; and she returned to her own house.

2, Please recall what you church teaches in the vigil of the feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple. These teachings cannot be reconciled the idea: “when did she become full of grace. For us, it begins at the annunciation and acceptance of her pregnancy”.
3. Can you find any Patristic support, anything even a couple of centuries old, that supports this idea?

 

[dvdjs]

I personally believe she did, probably for the same reasons you do.

At the same time, the unmistakable emphasis in the Orthodox liturgical texts of the Feast is the translation to heaven, and the complete triumph over death - even to the point of referring to her passing as “deathless dormition”.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

At the same time, the unmistakable emphasis in the Orthodox liturgical texts of the Feast is the translation to heaven, and the complete triumph over death - even to the point of referring to her passing as “deathless dormition”.

 

[poripo]

VirtualWorkforceAsia aims to bring together skilled and talented virtual workers from Asia, and employers from Australia and New Zealand, for the benefit of all parties.
Most virtual workers look to the USA and Canada for opportunities – often at great cost to their social and family life because they become night workers. Australia, and to a lesser extent, New Zealand are geographically AND chronologically Asian. This gives Asian virtual workers the option of working during their day so that they have time for family and friends!
Add to that the strength of the Australian economy – complete with a well documented skills shortage, and it is obvious that both workers and employers stand to gain by forging ties.

 

[Vico]

Does the Roman Catholic Church believe St. Mary died like any other human? The Orthodox Church does believe she died, even though we say she fell asleep in the Lord, and call the feast of the falling asleep of the Theotokos the dormition of Mary.

Many believe she died first, but the dogma makes no statement on it rather uses the phrase “when the course of her earthly life was finished”. Blessed Pope John Paul II comments:

“Belief in the glorious destiny of the body and soul of the Lord’s Mother after her death spread very rapidly from East to West.”http://carm.org/bodily-assumption-mary#footnote3_us5yomt

“Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady’s death, nothing certain is known.”

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_02071997_en.html

 

[Palamas]

May everyone have a joyous and blessed theophany this Friday.

 

[couponfit]

The Immaculate Conception is an infallibly defined dogma, binding on all Catholics. Just sayin’.

Statements of faith followed by the words just saying typically are meant to be division and have no genuine intent at learning or growing from the person who asks. I do not even know where the question is.

So my response is…Thank you for sharing!

 

[couponfit]

If a denomination does not believe it, they are not in communion with the true Church of Jesus Christ. So, Byzantine Catholics would believe this dogma as they are in communion with Rome while Eastern Orthodox churches (or any other denomination) who are not in communion with Rome can choose to believe it or not. Not believing in a dogma puts you outside of communion with Rome, regardless of if you claim the world catholic or not. That was my point.

That is my understanding. If this is not true, I would like to know but I would want to see something in an official document, not just a post on CAF.

God Bless.

The expression is different wording. The belief is in agreement with each other. May is full of Grace! Mary is the Mother of God! Both parts of the Hail Mary are in agreement with one another, neither is not. If I said: Mary is full of Grace! Just sayin. That is not to say she is not Mother of God! Nor vice versa. Mary is both free sinless and born without original sin. She is redeemed and saved! She is both! She is all. How?

To use a metaphor imagine at your conception you came to being and fell into a hole left by Adam. Suddenly Jesus appears and helps you out and offers you his eternal kingdom. Now imagine Mary, at her birth, she too was conceived but in her immaculate conception when she came to the hole left by Adam and nearly fell in, Jesus reached out through the Holy Spirit and saved her before she fell in. SHe was never tainted by Adam’s choice but she was still saved.

 

[Elijahmaria]

Many believe she died first, but the dogma makes no statement on it rather uses the phrase “when the course of her earthly life was finished”. Blessed Pope John Paul II comments:

“Belief in the glorious destiny of the body and soul of the Lord’s Mother after her death spread very rapidly from East to West.”http://carm.org/bodily-assumption-mary#footnote3_us5yomt

“Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady’s death, nothing certain is known.”

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_02071997_en.html

It seems strange to continue to promote the idea that the doctrine of the Assumption does not teach that the Mother of God died…particularly when a huge portion of the text of the apostolic constitution is devoted to discussing the long history of the Church’s understanding that she did, in fact, die…and was then raised up.

M.

 

[Stephentlig]

It is our tradition that she gave birth to Christ without pains. I’m referring specifically to her death, which is affirmed in our tradition and which some raise as an objection to the Immaculate Conception, assuming as they do that the “stain of Original Sin” includes mortality, which obviously it does not in Latin teaching.

Peace and God bless!

Jesus died too. Does this mean we can object to him being without sin? I didn’t think so.

The Immaculate conception is Dogma. It was a unanimous verdict by the Eastern and Western Fathers. And when the Fathers are unanimous in their interpretation of Scripture it is binding on all Catholics. All Pius IX did was confirm it to stop those from falling into Heresy basically.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Immaculate conception is Dogma. It was a unanimous verdict by the Eastern and Western Fathers.

Which Eastern Fathers? We do not even celebrate the day of conception of Mary by St. Anne on the same day. The Immaculate Conception, Latinizations aside, is not a belief in the East. It conflicts with our understandng of the effects of the Fall on human nature. We do not have the Western concept of Original Sin, therefore the Immaculate Conception does not make any sense in our theology.

 

[Stephentlig]

Which Eastern Fathers? We do not even celebrate the day of conception of Mary by St. Anne on the same day. The Immaculate Conception, Latinizations aside, is not a belief in the East. It conflicts with our understandng of the effects of the Fall on human nature. We do not have the Western concept of Original Sin, therefore the Immaculate Conception does not make any sense in our theology.

Wrong. It does not fall into the concept of ‘‘Orthodox’’ theology. You are not Orthodox you are Catholic. Holding to Orthodox theology and traditions does not mean holding to Orthodox heresy.

**
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446). **

**
“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733). **

I’m interested in seeing a magisterial document that explains how Eastern Christians are ‘‘free’’ to reject the immaculate conception? Otherwise I am not interested in ‘‘it does not fit into our idea of original sin’’.

And shame be on us Eastern Catholics who do reject the immaculate conception and do not celebrate it. It is a Dogma of the faith. and anyone who rejects the Immaculate Conception has most certainly fallen into heresy and is not in communion with Rome at all.

Eastern Christians are not cafeteria Catholics. And there certainly is no picky choosy in my household.