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Joyful_1
Guest
If Mary was supposed to be so highly venerated, why was it not addressed more clearly by Jesus in the Gospel or in other parts of the New Testament?
Joyful_1
Joyful_1
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Like Elizabeth, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, saying “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”?
Or an angel, greeting her with “Chaire!”?
P
Penitus
Guest
The NT says that all generations will call Mary blessed.
That’s not good enough for you?
That’s not good enough for you?
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adam_in_ohio
Guest
“And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior’” Lk 1:46-47
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Nita
Guest
Hi Joyful,
I don’t know why Jesus never specifically said to venerate Mary, but I don’t find it unusual. After all, He never specifically told us to worship Him (at least I don’t think He did) - and He was/is Our Lord and Saviour, far superior to Mary.
I think those who knew and believed in Jesus automatically had a great respect for Mary. Jesus lived with her for 30 of His 33 years. I sometimes wonder if the apostles liked to visit her and ask about Jesus’ earlier years. Perhaps it was from Mary that they learned the events of Our Lord’s birth and the losing of Him in Jerusalem (temple) when He was 12 years old.
Nita
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adam_in_ohio
Guest
I dissagree! (with respect) Heb 2:11 “… That is why he is not ashamed to call them brethren” If we are brothers of Christ that would make Mary our mother. We are to honor our father and mother. At the wedding at Cana Jesus honored his mother by doing what she asked of him. So I’d say the Bible does explicitly tell us to venerate the Mother of God.
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bill210
Guest
My friend stop and consider. Do you honor God when you honor Mary? I can tell you that you do not honor Jesus when you ignore or dishonor his mother. Mary is daughter of God the Father, Spouse of the Holy Spirit and Mother of the Son. She is the preeminent disciple made pure and perfect by God to bear His Son. Jesus and Mary go together from Conception, to Cana, to Cross; Mary was the example of how to be a Christian. We honor God when we honor his most perfect creature, Mary, given to us by Jesus from the cross.
God love you.
Bill
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vadermanu89
Guest
I have no idea why would Protestants disagree with the above statement, when their founder, Martin Luther, voiced the exact sentiments.
Martin Luther on the Veneration of Mary:
The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).
No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
That’s not what the OP said. He wanted that the New Testament say, “Venerate Mary” word-for-word, which does not exist. We venerate Mary because of what the Bible says about her, not because of what the Bible tells us to do about her.
What you’re describing does tell how Jesus regarded his mother but nowhere does he say, “Venerate Mary”. You are correct of course, but these do not explicitly command us to venerate her. They form part of basis of our veneration, as a response to all this.
J
Joyful_1
Guest
Just so that everyone knows, I completly agree that we should venerate Mary. I posted this question in a tone which I knew would incite vehement answers. I asked it because I wanted to find a way to explain it to someone else who still (even though she is a practicing Catholic now) has some trouble with this issue. As a former Protestant myself, I understood her point of view and wanted to see if I could get some better insight from you guys. You’re a great help.
I said that since the Catholic Church is so intrinsically connected to Our Lady, “when you do not have the Church as your mother, you cannot have God as your Father” (St. Cyprian?)- or Mary as your mother.
It seems to automatically flow from their rejection of the CC.
Just my opinion. Feel free to counter it.
God Bless
Joyful_1
My dad and I were discussing this last night. He said, “How is it that the ‘Great Reformer’ himself had Marian devotion, but it did not carry over into any Protestant denominations (aside from Anglicanism)”
I said that since the Catholic Church is so intrinsically connected to Our Lady, “when you do not have the Church as your mother, you cannot have God as your Father” (St. Cyprian?)- or Mary as your mother.
It seems to automatically flow from their rejection of the CC.
Just my opinion. Feel free to counter it.
God Bless
Joyful_1
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SolaFide
Guest
Did you notice that all the Biblical quotes of the previous posts just quote primarily from the speech of Elizabeth to Mary or Gabriel’s salutation to Mary.
Here is Gabriel’s salutation, notice VERY carefully the wording:
Luk 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
Luk 1:29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
Luk 1:30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
Luk 1:33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
Notice Gabriel said she was blessed AMONG women, not ABOVE other women. Mary was no more than the earthly vessel God chose.
Elizabeth’s greeting to Mary:
Luk 1:42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Luk 1:43 But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Once again, AMONG women, not GREATER than other women.
Everywhere else in the NT you see Jesus even downplaying his relationship to her referring to her as “woman” rather than “mother.” Even from the cross he called her “woman” when he directed her to John’s care.
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SolaFide
Guest
FYI: This doctrine of Marian “devotion” is probably THE sinble most problematic doctrine of the Catholic church in the eyes of “Bible following churches”.
There are many doctrines that Catholics and non-Catholics disagree on but this is the one that makes us the most uneasy.
There are many doctrines that Catholics and non-Catholics disagree on but this is the one that makes us the most uneasy.
M
mercygate
Guest
Although Mary was known as “Mother of God” as early as the third century – 100 years before the Council of Ephesus made the title official – full appreciation of Our Lady’s position emerged only in the wake of the full understanding of Our Lord’s Person as codified in the Chalcedonian definition of 451 A.D.
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EphelDuath
Guest
You’re slick for intentionally ignoring the “Hail, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.” That would be the more-correct translation of that passage, anyway. An extremely literal translation of kecharitomene would be something along the lines of “Hail, O you who have been graced before and has continued to remain graced until now, the Lord is with you.”
The word kecharitomene is only used to reference God in other passages. Never for a person, only the Blessed Virgin Mary.
I don’t see how “among women” contradicts “above women.” Why can’t it be both? She’s both a blessed woman and THE blessed woman.
I’m sorry you hate the mother of God so much. Ironic that you believe you’re following the Bible when the Bible itself was written, preserved and compiled by the Catholic Church to worship God and venerate the saints.
Mary says, “my soul magnifies the Lord.” Protestants believe Catholics use it to de-magnify the Lord. What’s wrong with having the mother of God pray for us?
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zerocrossing
Guest
Ummm… even in English, “blessed are you among women” means “you are the most blessed of all women.” The idiom indicates that she is being singled out as blessed, not that she is just another woman who’s being blessed.
BTW, in Greek, the word being translated “blessed” is ευλογημενη. It is related to εὐαγγέλιον (Evangelion), which is the Good News.
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seek
Guest
A few other things to consider…kecharitomene is also
viewed as a title–a new name. Now God gave new names
to only a few…Abram to Abraham…Jacob to Israel…
Simon to Peter…and Mary to Fully Perfectly Graced.
And NEVER forget Mary could have said NO.
This is also the only time an Angel adresses a human
with Hail. Mary’s yes changed the world.
viewed as a title–a new name. Now God gave new names
to only a few…Abram to Abraham…Jacob to Israel…
Simon to Peter…and Mary to Fully Perfectly Graced.
And NEVER forget Mary could have said NO.
This is also the only time an Angel adresses a human
with Hail. Mary’s yes changed the world.
J
Joyful_1
Guest
You hit the nail right on the head.
Is this what you were thinking of: John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, **full of grace **and truth.”?
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SolaFide
Guest
Where in the world do you get that? Regarding my bold, no it doesn’t mean the same in English. When I say: “Among my friends, there are two red-heads.” It doesn’t mean that the red heads are above the others, they are just distinct in that they have red hair.
G5487
χαριτόω
charitoō
Thayer Definition:
- to make graceful
1a) charming, lovely, agreeable - to peruse with grace, compass with favour
- to honour with blessings
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5485
Citing in TDNT: 9:372, 1298
Thou that art highly favored (κεχαριτωμένη)
Lit., as Rev. in margin, endued with grace. Only here and Eph 1:6The rendering full of grace, Vulgate, Wyc., and Tynd., is therefore wrong.
All the best texts omit blessed art thou among women.
(Vincent’s Word Studies in the Greek)
The Greek word for “blessed” just means “well spoken of”. Indeed, Mary is well spoken of. She was a humble, obedient servant of the Most High God. As we all should be. But there is NO hint of veneration in these verses. It’s a presumptious leap on the text to go from blessed or happy to veneration.
E
EphelDuath
Guest
You took the one verse that you yourself contested, proved that its meaning is neutral, and then (while ignoring the two most significant sentences in the passage), cleanly say that it’s presumptuous to honor the mother of God.
See, this is why propaganda works so efficiently: some people don’t pick up on it fast enough.
See, this is why propaganda works so efficiently: some people don’t pick up on it fast enough.
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