Marian Worship

[Abira]

We believe that she and the other saints are in no way in competition with Christ, rather, as glorified members of His body all are completely co-operating with Christ their head, to achieve his will both on earth and in heaven.

So they neither make any request nor perform any task nor receive any veneration outside of their status as members of his body, and in union with and in conjunction with his will.

My problem is summarised by something I found in a book while trying to get over the Marian devotion issues I have:

“O Mother of God, Immaculate Mary! To thee do I dedicate my body and soul, all my prayers and deeds, my joys and sufferings, all that I am and all that I have. With a joyful heart I surrender myself to Thy bondage of love. To Thee will I devote my service of my own free will for the salvation of mankind, and for the help of the Holy Church whose Mother Thou art. From now on my desire is to do all things with Thee, and for Thee. I know I can accomplish nothing with my own strength, whereas Though canst do everything that is the will of Thy Son, and Though art always victorious. Grant therefore, O Helper of the faithful, that my family, my parish, and my homeland might become in truth the Kingdom where Though reignest with Thy Son. Amen.
For life in the maternal bondage of Mary for the Holy
Church, My blessing.
Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski.”
I have loved the book and have learnt loads… but even though both protestant and catholic agree that this is a ‘lavish’ dedication, I was not reassured by the Catholics response. He stresses that this is his personal view and prayer and not representative of all Catholics… and I accept this… but I feel that this man has ‘gone too far’ and that perhaps Catholics in general do this to a lesser extent. Every time I try my best to get over this issue I just can’t look past this.

They talk about Jansenism… and the role that Mary played during this time in History… but I feel that this man lost focus on Gid during this prayer…and in his whole life, which he dedicates and fcussed too much on her (and I don’t understand why Thee and Though are capitalised when she is not God or a deity either)

Take care, S x

 

[Abira]

there were two other examples (one pope and Saint Athanasius) that upset me in the book but I don’t wanna go into them unless people ask as I’d rather keep a more balanced view and block them out in a kind of theological self denial lol

I felt that even though the Catholic position was defended well there was no protestant…real life… equivilant fault offered, only an arguament against too great a focus on the Bible… but I do not believe in sola scriptura so this did not console me. I really wanted to feel better after reading this… although I have not finished this chapter yet so hopefully they’ll help me out by page 173 lol

S

 

[Mannyfit75]

My problem is summarised by something I found in a book while trying to get over the Marian devotion issues I have:

“O Mother of God, Immaculate Mary! To thee do I dedicate my body and soul, all my prayers and deeds, my joys and sufferings, all that I am and all that I have. With a joyful heart I surrender myself to Thy bondage of love. To Thee will I devote my service of my own free will for the salvation of mankind, and for the help of the Holy Church whose Mother Thou art. From now on my desire is to do all things with Thee, and for Thee. I know I can accomplish nothing with my own strength, whereas Though canst do everything that is the will of Thy Son, and Though art always victorious. Grant therefore, O Helper of the faithful, that my family, my parish, and my homeland might become in truth the Kingdom where Though reignest with Thy Son. Amen.
For life in the maternal bondage of Mary for the Holy
Church, My blessing.
Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski.”
I have loved the book and have learnt loads… but even though both protestant and catholic agree that this is a ‘lavish’ dedication, I was not reassured by the Catholics response. He stresses that this is his personal view and prayer and not representative of all Catholics… and I accept this… but I feel that this man has ‘gone too far’ and that perhaps Catholics in general do this to a lesser extent. Every time I try my best to get over this issue I just can’t look past this.

They talk about Jansenism… and the role that Mary played during this time in History… but I feel that this man lost focus on Gid during this prayer…and in his whole life, which he dedicates and fcussed too much on her (and I don’t understand why Thee and Though are capitalised when she is not God or a deity either)

Take care, S x

Is Jesus taken out of the prayer? I notice all Marian prayers always have Jesus name in it.

Like Hail Mary prayer. As I look at the prayer, Jesus is not taken out in full context.

 

[LilyM]

My problem is summarised by something I found in a book while trying to get over the Marian devotion issues I have:

“O Mother of God, Immaculate Mary! To thee do I dedicate my body and soul, all my prayers and deeds, my joys and sufferings, all that I am and all that I have. With a joyful heart I surrender myself to Thy bondage of love. To Thee will I devote my service of my own free will for the salvation of mankind, and for the help of the Holy Church whose Mother Thou art. From now on my desire is to do all things with Thee, and for Thee. I know I can accomplish nothing with my own strength, whereas Though canst do everything that is the will of Thy Son, and Though art always victorious. Grant therefore, O Helper of the faithful, that my family, my parish, and my homeland might become in truth the Kingdom where Though reignest with Thy Son. Amen.
For life in the maternal bondage of Mary for the Holy
Church, My blessing.
Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski.”
I have loved the book and have learnt loads… but even though both protestant and catholic agree that this is a ‘lavish’ dedication, I was not reassured by the Catholics response. He stresses that this is his personal view and prayer and not representative of all Catholics… and I accept this… but I feel that this man has ‘gone too far’ and that perhaps Catholics in general do this to a lesser extent. Every time I try my best to get over this issue I just can’t look past this.

They talk about Jansenism… and the role that Mary played during this time in History… but I feel that this man lost focus on Gid during this prayer…and in his whole life, which he dedicates and fcussed too much on her (and I don’t understand why Thee and Though are capitalised when she is not God or a deity either)

Take care, S x

It’s just a sign of respect, you’d probably find these words have been capitalised in referring to kings and queens and such in the past as well. Remember in English ‘I’ is always capitalised as well

Again, we don’t see devotion to a saint or Mary as being in competition with Christ, any more than our love for and devotion to our friends and family is in competition with our love of God.

There’s a fairly common form of the wedding service where the vows state ‘with my body I thee worship’. Now do you truly think that someone saying this, or claiming that they adore or worship their children, is committing idolatry or supplanting God by saying so? No. Because utter devotion to one’s spouse or children isn’t incompatible with utter devotion to God. Neither is devotion to Mary or any of the other saints.

 

[Abira]

Again, we don’t see devotion to a saint or Mary as being in competition with Christ, any more than our love for and devotion to our friends and family is in competition with our love of God.

There’s a fairly common form of the wedding service where the vows state ‘with my body I thee worship’. Now do you truly think that someone saying this, or claiming that they adore or worship their children, is committing idolatry or supplanting God by saying so? No. Because utter devotion to one’s spouse or children isn’t incompatible with utter devotion to God. Neither is devotion to Mary or any of the other saints.

When you talk to me I believe you as a person… but when I read words like the wuote above it really hurts me on a personal level.

I almost feel embarrassed for Mary listening to such praise as that when there should be at least some sign of God there. If those references were changed to God then it would be a great sentiment…

but then we get back to language again… and sometimes I think that words said in honesty can in fact lead people on the wrong path… the language denotes things… as you say… but the connotations in the language are massive.

I’ve only been looking into this since September though…and I’ve had my upbringing all my life… so it may just take time.

S x

 

[Abira]

sorry I didn’t mean you’re quote… i meant the cardinal I quoted… just to clarify

S

 

[LilyM]

When you talk to me I believe you as a person… but when I read words like the wuote above it really hurts me on a personal level.

I almost feel embarrassed for Mary listening to such praise as that when there should be at least some sign of God there. If those references were changed to God then it would be a great sentiment…

but then we get back to language again… and sometimes I think that words said in honesty can in fact lead people on the wrong path… the language denotes things… as you say… but the connotations in the language are massive.

I’ve only been looking into this since September though…and I’ve had my upbringing all my life… so it may just take time.

S x

But why would she be embarrassed? This is Mary, the woman who happily allowed the angel to call her ‘full of grace’ and Elizabeth to call her ‘blessed among all women’ and ‘the mother of my Lord’. Mary herself said ‘the Almighty works marvels for me … henceforth all generations will call me blessed’. She doesn’t sound like the real shy shrinking violet type.

I mean Mary was the one who approached Christ at Cana. One presumes that she was asked to do so by someone there, after all it wasn’t her wedding so she probably wouldn’t have noticed the wine on her own. Is there any record of her telling people in a huff ‘how dare you ask me - go to my son, go directly to him, do not pass go or collect $200’.

 

[MariaG]

But why would she be embarrassed? This is Mary, the woman who happily allowed the angel to call her ‘full of grace’ and Elizabeth to call her ‘blessed among all women’ and ‘the mother of my Lord’. Mary herself said ‘the Almighty works marvels for me … henceforth all generations will call me blessed’. She doesn’t sound like the real shy shrinking violet type.

I mean Mary was the one who approached Christ at Cana. One presumes that she was asked to do so by someone there, after all it wasn’t her wedding so she probably wouldn’t have noticed the wine on her own. Is there any record of her telling people in a huff ‘how dare you ask me - go to my son, go directly to him, do not pass go or collect $200’.

As well as “my soul magnifies the Lord”. So any praise of Mary (and her soul) if just magnifing the Lord!

When one truly examines the doctrines of the Catholic Church about Mary, they truly are less about Mary and say more about Christ.

For example: Ever Virgin. Mary was ever virgin because the Lord was in her womb. Just as the Ark of the Covenant which carried the word of God could not be touched by a man, no man could touch Mary who carried the Word.

 

[Abira]

for me I think:

How can they pray to and through Mary… they risk doing someing seriously and blasphemously wrong here… I may be right

or else…maybe they are right, but why not just pray straight to God through the sole mediator Jesus… just to be safe… even though I may be wrong

It’s just such an alien concept and I find it hard to honour a human to such a degree without feeling as if i cross some palpable line and guilt… I feel as if i’d be treading on dangerous ground

… though having said all of this I don’t have the prejudices against the Catholic church that brought me to learn more about it.

S

 

[LilyM]

for me I think:

How can they pray to and through Mary… they risk doing someing seriously and blasphemously wrong here… I may be right

or else…maybe they are right, but why not just pray straight to God through the sole mediator Jesus… just to be safe… even though I may be wrong

It’s just such an alien concept and I find it hard to honour a human to such a degree without feeling as if i cross some palpable line and guilt… I feel as if i’d be treading on dangerous ground

… though having said all of this I don’t have the prejudices against the Catholic church that brought me to learn more about it.

S

So what are your thoughts on Eucharistic Adoration then? It appears to me that if honouring Christ’s mother in a way which ISN’T worship causes so many problems for you you must totally flip at the idea of ADMITTEDLY worshipping the Blessed Sacrament eh?

 

[MariaG]

for me I think:

How can they pray to and through Mary… they risk doing someing seriously and blasphemously wrong here… I may be right

or else…maybe they are right, but why not just pray straight to God through the sole mediator Jesus… just to be safe… even though I may be wrong

It’s just such an alien concept and I find it hard to honour a human to such a degree without feeling as if i cross some palpable line and guilt… I feel as if i’d be treading on dangerous ground

… though having said all of this I don’t have the prejudices against the Catholic church that brought me to learn more about it.

S

I understand EXACTLY what you mean. I too used to be there.

However, I was at the point where I could say. Okay, I know the Catholic Church is right (pillar and foundation of truth etc.), because I know they are right, Lord show me why it is good and right to ask Mary to pray for us.

While you may not be able to say you know the Church is right, you can trust in the Lord.

Ask Him to show you IF it is pleasing to Him to ask for Mary to pray for us. And if He shows you that, ask Him to draw a line on your heart so you fully understand and never cross the line from hyperdulia of Mary to Latria which only God deserves.

 

[Abira]

I understand EXACTLY what you mean. I too used to be there.

However, I was at the point where I could say. Okay, I know the Catholic Church is right (pillar and foundation of truth etc.), because I know they are right, Lord show me why it is good and right to ask Mary to pray for us.

I’m at the point where I’m thinking: why am I protestant? I’ve just been brought up without even knowing my faith.(just like this cradle Catholic I tried to talk to today… I knew more than he did about catholicism which is dismal lol) I lost my faith when I was younger and still haven’t found what I lost fully. I don’t believe in faith alone or scripture alone…

I only started learning about Catholicism to end a lifelong prejudice against it and it’s since I 've started learning about Catholic theology that I’ve connected with protestant theology, and ideas about faith of my own that I never realised I had…it’s like the only way I’m able to connect again is with my head even though I ask, I just can’t feel anything yet.

so that’s where I am lol… I only meant that to be a few lines lol

I think once I know where I want to be, or if I want to be these things will be easier to accept rather than trying to resolve everything through my own wisdom (or lack thereof lol)

Take care, S

 

[water]

so that’s where I am lol… I only meant that to be a few lines lol

I think once I know where I want to be, or if I want to be these things will be easier to accept rather than trying to resolve everything through my own wisdom (or lack thereof lol)

Take care, S

Abira,

I believe you are on the right track of searching. With your open-minded, you are helping God to work on you easier.

God bless you.

 

[Abira]

Abira,

I believe you are on the right track of searching. With your open-minded, you are helping God to work on you easier.

God bless you.

I pray that is the case, Water… but I just wish it would happen faster! and easier!!! I feel like I can’t decide on what direction t move in til I know what path I’m on… so I’m at a standstill til then

Take care, S

 

[water]

I pray that is the case, Water… but I just wish it would happen faster! and easier!!! I feel like I can’t decide on what direction t move in til I know what path I’m on… so I’m at a standstill til then

Take care, S

Standing still is better than moving backwards. You do the best you could, and the rest is for Him.

I am currently looking for some books about converts’ stories and how they converted to Catholic. I am sure it will be very benefit to me and strengthen my faith.

Have you got one?

 

[Abira]

Have you got one?

a faith or a book? lol

I’m reading Catholicism for dummies and
Mary: an Evangelical-Catholic dialogue at the moment

I’m not interested in converts stories because I don’t have the experience that you do… I’ve got more pressing issues on me

Take care, S

 

[Subrosa]

for me I think:

How can they pray to and through Mary… they risk doing someing seriously and blasphemously wrong here… I may be right

or else…maybe they are right, but why not just pray straight to God through the sole mediator Jesus… just to be safe… even though I may be wrong

It’s just such an alien concept and I find it hard to honour a human to such a degree without feeling as if i cross some palpable line and guilt… I feel as if i’d be treading on dangerous ground

… though having said all of this I don’t have the prejudices against the Catholic church that brought me to learn more about it.

S

Hi Abira -

Fundimentally the confusion lies in the Catholic concept of the “Body of Christ”, a concept put forth by Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 and Ephesians chapter 4.

Paul introduces this concept of the Body of Christ as the members of His church with Christ as the Head. The Catholic understanding of this is not symbolic, but mystical. The Holy Spirit which dwells in all of us is the “connection.”

The saints, that is the people who have gone before us to the kingdom remain in the Holy Spirit. Mary, a human chosen by God to birth His Son, remains alive in heaven. She, along with all the other saints, maintain thier part of the Body.

The bible is filled with pleas to people to pray for them. We still do this with the saints.

Mary is a special case. She is the Mother of God (Theotokos). She was God’s chosen person, a special place in humanity given only to her.

The Church recognizes this and places her there, properly.

As a member of the Anglican Communion, here is something that you should read…

ecumenism.net/archive/arcic/mary_en.htm

I hope this helps,
Subrosa

 

[Abira]

ecumenism.net/archive/arcic/mary_en.htm

I hope this helps,
Subrosa

yeah good link.

 

[Abira]

So what are your thoughts on Eucharistic Adoration then? It appears to me that if honouring Christ’s mother in a way which ISN’T worship causes so many problems for you you must totally flip at the idea of ADMITTEDLY worshipping the Blessed Sacrament eh?

i’ve never witnessed this… and won’t really comment because I’m not sure if I believe in the real resence… although because this is Christ focussed, I can relate to it and do not feel threatened by it at all. My only issues are Marian

take care, S

 

[Abira]

Is Jesus taken out of the prayer? I notice all Marian prayers always have Jesus name in it.

Like Hail Mary prayer. As I look at the prayer, Jesus is not taken out in full context.

ok… just to look specifically at this prayer I’ll bracket every place I feel uncomfortable so you can see it more how I see it:

“O Mother of God(let’s not go there…though I m more comfortable with theotokos than before), Immaculate Mary! To thee do I dedicate my body and soul, all my prayers and deeds, my joys and sufferings, all that I am and all that I have(dedicates everything to HER…not to Jesus??). With a joyful heart I surrender myself to Thy bondage of love(same idea here). To Thee will I devote my service of my own free will for the salvation of mankind, and for the help of the Holy Church whose Mother Thou art. From now on my desire is to do all things with Thee, and for Thee(why can’t he just use Jesus’ name and all would be ok!!). I know I can accomplish nothing with my own strength, whereas Though canst do everything that is the will of Thy Son(finally a non Mary reference… but He is mentioned in relation to her…rather than the other way round), and Though art always victorious. Grant therefore, O Helper of the faithful, that my family, my parish, and my homeland might become in truth the Kingdom where Though reignest with Thy Son(surely Mary does not reign with her son, this implies on a parr, she is subordinate to Him and surely only God rules ). Amen.
For life in the maternal bondage of Mary for the Holy
Church, My blessing.
Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski.”

This is just so extreme… it’s so focussed on Mary that Jesus is almost as a side thought. This is just to show you how I view it as in your earlier post I knew you maybe found it impossible to see my view… just as I’m struggling t try to see yours.

S