Marijuana

[awsmith1861]

But one problem is that if you make it illegal you create a barrier to treatment. For example, alcohol is legal but it can be abused. If I thought I had a problem I could seek out help without fear of losing my job or house. On the other hand, if I had a problem with an illegal drug I’d have a real fear of losing my job, house, etc. I’d be somewhat fearful of seeking out treatment since it requires me to admit to a crime with real penalties.

True. The fact is that getting off of pot is a LOT different than getting off of cigarettes (legal, taxed), alcohol (legal, taxed), and pills (legal most of the time, taxed). And if social services found out anyone had pot in the house, they can lose their kids, even in freedom states.

I’ve stopped pot after years of using it (its been probably 15 years since I quit b/c it just was too expensive) and its a bit like running out of coke in the fridge. You miss the coke, but oh well.

Cigarettes though… That was pure hell. So much so that I wouldn’t start cigarettes again b/c of the trouble quitting.

I’d rather live with a pot smoker than a drunk any day. Pot smokers don’t tend to wreck cars (you sober up from pot in about 2 hours, up to 12 for booze so pot smokers go home after smoking sober). Pot smokers don’t turn into demons like drunks do. If you’ve ever lived with an alcoholic you know how nasty they can get inbetween DUIs. Yea, we all know the guys who abuse pot too and they are not much better than the drunks. But they are few and far between after they get much past age 25.

Its morally wrong to throw moms and dads in jail for pot while letting people with DUIs get off with probation for a year or a suspended sentence for a year or even have their charges thrown out on ‘1st time offender programs’. Drunks KILL PEOPLE on the roads and yet they get a slap on the wrist for their DUIs. Caught with enough pot to supply one person for one week? Jail.

Christians who fight against drug legalization are putting nails in Christianity’s coffin. Drug problems are SOCIAL problems, not CRIMINAL ones.

 

[awsmith1861]

Some ruminations, from all over the spectrum:

1. Pot is a gateway drug.
2. I’ve known many pot users – and every one, bar none, was a pickled loser. Some had college degrees from top universities – but none had any ambition; verve; mental acuity or “sharpness.” My perception is that all of those qualities were dulled by the pot.

I hate marijuana; I think marijuana use is sinful; and I think pot users are lowlifes who waste their lives. I’ve been cussed at; called a hater; and worse – which is fine, because one thing I’ll never be is a pothead.

Its exactly this sort of mantra that is why kids use pot and don’t believe DARE’s lectures.

Cigarettes are also a gateway drug. Hell, asparin may be. ALCOHOL is the worst gateway drug if there is such a thing as a ‘gateway drug’. I know ONE out of probably 100 of the people i’ve known my entire life who moved on from pot to harder drugs and screwed their life up. One. Was it pot or was he just an idiot?

When people hear, “gateway drug” and end up in the real world trying ‘The Devil’s Weed’, they find out 2 weeks later tehy aren’t selling their bodies in the French Quarter and living in the gutter. Then they see doctors, lawyers, and other professionals later in life who… are pot smokers. It blew my mind the 1st time I found out that 80% of the adults I knew were active or former pot smokers. Very successful, very ambitious people - all of them except for the guy in college who was stoned all day, every day. Yes, he ended up in prison and totally screwed up in the head. But did the pot screw him up or was he screwed up to begin with and using pot to try and self-medicate?

When you see a ‘pot head’ that’s out of it and zoned out, the truth is he’s not high on JUST pot. He’s on pills. People on just pot, provided they are not a 1st time user or a very light user, just can’t get messed up enough to be belligerent. And for some reason, pill heads love pot and booze (but especially booze for pill poppers).

With the cost of pot being $100ish for a 1 week supply for a daily user, I quit ages ago. I just had better things to spend the $$ on and honestly daily use just isn’t worth it unless you have some condition that pot helps to treat. The high is minimal compared to alcohol and other drugs when used daily.

Truth though: a never-smoker trying pot for the 1st time can get really messed up and sick. Same thing is true for the guy who uses it once a month. THe tolerance to pot bulids quickly to the point where you are not going to get very high no matter how much you smoke.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Under the DARE ginger (or even chocolate for some women) is a drug. A drug being "any substance the changes the way your body or mind works. " The distortions, lies, and character assassinations in anti drug programs are very counter productive as we grow up.

Though I think a lot of the issues around weed is partially around smoking it vs eating or vaporizing. We can’t ignore the fact that any smoke is bad for you.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Something I haven’t seen touched on much in this thread:
Whenever a commodity is made illegal, the government has just created a tax-free source of income to the willing supplier(s) of that commodity. If you’re wondering how the cartels got so rich so fast, there’s your answer, they didn’t have to pay taxes on any of that income. So bully for Colorado for attempting to claw back some of that revenue.

Also whenever a commodity is made illegal, no one in the business of supplying and consuming said commodity can use the court system as a remedy for enforcing contracts and resolving disputes. If the disputants are set enough in their positions, violence is often the only resort left to resolve the dispute. Also it is considerably difficult to engender trust among different entities. Something about “no honor among thieves” and all that. Hence the rise in violence: it happened in the Prohibition era and that experience has been repeated in spades with the gang/cartel warfare that has taken place on our streets, in Mexico, Colombia and other illegal drug supplying countries.

Finally, whenever a commodity is made illegal, it gives rise to an infrastructure dedicated to aid and abet the battle against it, hence we have the War On Drugs and all of the corruption and evils associated with it. For instance, prison guard unions are firmly against any legalization because they like the prisons to be as full as possible. When I lived in California, they were one of the top 3 contributors to the state legislatures. Or: just as with defense contractors, there are contractors feeding off the War On Drugs budget, of course they don’t want the War to ultimately succeed, that would be bad for their business. Or: we have seen civil asset forfeitures expanded to the seizure of ordinary motorists’ cash without any charges filed. Real estate forfeitures are now a huge cash cow for law enforcement as the law requires the proceeds to go to the law enforcement agencies that participated (I read a PDF that probably never should have been posted online of a major city police department participating in real estate forfeitures with the DEA and netting more than $42m over a four year period).

Regarding the discussion of marijuana as a “gateway” drug: sure it is for those already hooked on the harder stuff. But the correlation does not run the other way as claimed by “gateway” proponents. That is to say, “gateway” proponents essentially claim that those who try marijuana are very highly likely to end up hooked to harder drugs and engaging in a life of crime. This isn’t so. The risk isn’t zero, but it is far less than the “gateway” proponents claim it is. I was around the culture in my younger (and very fallen) days, and I can tell you most people move past it as I did. It’s only those who were screwed up in the head anyway who end up at the harder end of the spectrum.

 

[awsmith1861]

Something I haven’t seen touched on much in this thread:
Whenever a commodity is made illegal, the government has just created a tax-free source of income to the willing supplier(s) of that commodity. If you’re wondering how the cartels got so rich so fast, there’s your answer, they didn’t have to pay taxes on any of that income. So bully for Colorado for attempting to claw back some of that revenue.

Very wise statements in your post. One thing about pot growers though. They only get rich in states where its legal. Most of them really don’t make enough to quit their day jobs. Its not a thousands of dollars / month income unless you can grow a LOT and know people who can sell A LOT. (wholesale pot sells for about $50/oz … at least it did 15-20 years ago)

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Very wise statements in your post. One thing about pot growers though. They only get rich in states where its legal. Most of them really don’t make enough to quit their day jobs. Its not a thousands of dollars / month income unless you can grow a LOT and know people who can sell A LOT. (wholesale pot sells for about $50/oz … at least it did 15-20 years ago)

Lots of grow houses out there even where it’s illegal to do that. It’s quite labor intensive at planting and harvest time, but otherwise very little work other than monitoring. For indoor growing systems, there is typically a two month harvesting cycle meaning it’s possible to get up to six harvests per year. Let’s suppose that a typical grower has 80 plants in his house with each plant yielding about 2 oz of cured marijuana ready for consumption. Wholesale/retail prices depend on strain and quality, but let’s accept that estimate of $50/oz for the sake of discussion. With 80 plants, it’s possible to harvest 160 ounces which at $50/oz results in $8000 revenue every two months. Doesn’t sound like a lot, but remember this amounts to $48,000 per year in gross wholesale revenue which is ALL tax free. The grower will have his expenses of rent and utilities, but it’s still a good take for a small time wholesale grower, maybe enough for him to quit his day job.

80 plants sounds like a lot and they do take up a lot of space, but I’ve read about busts in which LE found as many as 350 plants in a house. There, we are talking about a potential of $35,000 every two months in gross wholesale revenue. Again ALL tax free.

Note we did not discuss retail pricing, keep in mind the retail markups can range from 300% to 1000% depending on the strain, quality and whatever the market will bear.

With this much money involved per grower and retailer, and with this much presence of marijuana, it shouldn’t surprise anyone in this day of flat to declining tax revenues, that state and local governments have started supporting legalization. In short, follow that money and tax it! Just like alcohol and tobacco are taxed. It’s not a coincidence that the big push to repeal the 18th Amendment took place at the start of the Great Depression.

BTW, how do I know all this? It’s easily searchable on Google, anyone can look it up. Not saying it’s right morally, but it is what it is. I choose the lower violence and lesser government spending on prosecution and incarceration with increased tax revenue over the violence that characterizes the illegal trade. Further, as a Catholic, I believe it is more compassionate to steer addicts into programs than to stuff them into jails.

 

[epan]

Some ruminations, from all over the spectrum:

1. If memory serves, I believe the visionaries at Medujorge were shown images by the Blessed Mother of sinful behavior. The images they were shown were of American teens using drugs.
2. Part of my job requires me to work with the mentally ill and their health care providers. Many providers have told me some permutation of “my patient’s mental illness was caused by their cannabis use.”
3. Pot is a gateway drug.
4. I’ve known many pot users – and every one, bar none, was a pickled loser. Some had college degrees from top universities – but none had any ambition; verve; mental acuity or “sharpness.” My perception is that all of those qualities were dulled by the pot.

I hate marijuana; I think marijuana use is sinful; and I think pot users are lowlifes who waste their lives. I’ve been cussed at; called a hater; and worse – which is fine, because one thing I’ll never be is a pothead.

It sounds like the population that you are in contact with is a small subset of the larger population, and probably not accurate to generalize from.

 

[PolarGuy]

And why, Epan, would we conclude that the people you are in contact with are any more representative than those who I’ve been in contact with?

 

[epan]

And why, Epan, would we conclude that the people you are in contact with are any more representative than those who I’ve been in contact with?

I guess your reply speaks to your objectivity, since I never made that claim. Your post speaks for itself. As part of your job you deal with mentally ill people. From that interaction you appear to have drawn a general conclusion which you apply to all marijuana users.

I still say, that your population of mentally ill patients is not representative of the general public. I notice that you have not disagreed with that statement, but instead made a false assumption for unknown reasons.

So, let me ask you the question: Do you think that the population that you encounter is representative of the general population?

 

[PolarGuy]

Gee, prickly tonight, aren’t we, Epan? You made a slightly pejorative comment and I asked a question. You’ve responded in a slightly more overtly hostile fashion.

To answer your question, I think the population of pot users I have encountered are absolutely representative of the pot users in the general population - namely, zoned out losers. I have no reason to think otherwise. I’d rather trust my own experiences than trust the say-so of pot defenders who anecdotally say otherwise.

 

[PolarGuy]

Now that I’ve answered you, Epan, perhaps you’d answer me: do you think pot users are generally responsible? Ambitious? Law abiding? Trustworthy? Moral? Productive members of society? Do they make good parents? Would you want your 18 year old daughter dating someone who used pot every other day?

 

[awsmith1861]

Now that I’ve answered you, Epan, perhaps you’d answer me: do you think pot users are generally responsible? Ambitious? Law abiding? Trustworthy? Moral? Productive members of society? Do they make good parents? Would you want your 18 year old daughter dating someone who used pot every other day?

I’d rather that than one who drank every other day.