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Lea101
Guest
A loving spouse should not expect her/his partner to slave away for unnecessary things. If she wants it so badly, get a job instead of forcing the poor guy to do it for her.
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Lea101
Guest
I am quite confused at the analogy, I admit.
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tafan2
Guest
Again, no one is saying its ever ok to force one’s spouse in having sex. That would be gravely sinful, to do so physically or through some sort of psychological gaming.
The issue is: when is it ok for me to refuse my wife sex. Now, I happen to think, for many reasons sex is extremely important. So I am utterly surprised that people are arguing its okay for them to refuse sex with their spouse for no other reason than they want to watch a football game or read a book (those two examples are what started this current round of disagreement). But, I did state very early on, that it is a matter of prudential judgement as to what consititutes a reasonable cause for refusal. So if you don’t have any pangs of conscience for treating your wife/husband that way, I do not have any explicit church teaching to state otherwise.
The issue is: when is it ok for me to refuse my wife sex. Now, I happen to think, for many reasons sex is extremely important. So I am utterly surprised that people are arguing its okay for them to refuse sex with their spouse for no other reason than they want to watch a football game or read a book (those two examples are what started this current round of disagreement). But, I did state very early on, that it is a matter of prudential judgement as to what consititutes a reasonable cause for refusal. So if you don’t have any pangs of conscience for treating your wife/husband that way, I do not have any explicit church teaching to state otherwise.
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1ke
Guest
Not free to refuse without a just reason.
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Aquinas11
Guest
yes because one spouse thinks its unnecessary but the other spouse says it is necessary. Nobody insisting on being bought unnecessary things admits “I know this is unnecessary, but…”Is it a better analogy? since a spouse isn’t obligated to buy another unnecessary things?
same with the sex requests at issue here - one spouse views it as necessary, other doesn’t.
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Lea101
Guest
I know. But I’m merely inviting people to speculate why we agree rape is wrong, but forcing your kids to eat isn’t. To point out that analogies like the one you gave cannot be compared to sex at all.Again, no one is saying its ever ok to force one’s spouse in having sex. That would be gravely sinful, to do so physically or through some sort of psychological gaming.
Because we feel like not being interested at the moment is a reasonable request. Since most spouses wouldn’t want to have sex with someone that personally doesn’t want to, it would be a reasonable scenario.So I am utterly surprised that people are arguing its okay for them to refuse sex with their spouse for no other reason than they want to watch a football game or read a book
Now earlier you gave an example of a guy coming back and the couple having sex. In that scenario, she basically changes her mind and now wants to have sex. So that’s different from what I’m describing, where the wife-after his advances-still says ‘I’m still not feeling it’.
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Lea101
Guest
A just reason being ‘I don’t want to have kids at the moment, just like how we have agreed on this earlier before you changed your mind’
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BoomBoomMancini
Guest
Fine, except one of those beliefs is potentially wrong and stupid. Someone who thinks they need a gold plated toilet seat or they’ll just die is acting like an idiot. Ditto someone who thinks that having sex on some particular night is “necessary.”same with the sex requests at issue here - one spouse views it as necessary, other doesn’t.
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1ke
Guest
Nope. I don’t want to have kids at the moment isn’t actually a just reason. Not even a just reason for NFP itself— a just reason goes beyond that. “I just don’t want to” isn’t a reason.
Plus you wouldn’t even having kids “at the moment” not almost a year later, IF you actually conceived.
I think this issue has gotten very clouded by the idea that women have “autonomy” over their bodies— when that is simply not true in marriage. St Paul says it himself, neither he husband nor the wife does.
Plus you wouldn’t even having kids “at the moment” not almost a year later, IF you actually conceived.
I think this issue has gotten very clouded by the idea that women have “autonomy” over their bodies— when that is simply not true in marriage. St Paul says it himself, neither he husband nor the wife does.
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BoomBoomMancini
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I can’t keep pulling this thread, but we’re just going to have to disagree on whether “I don’t feel like it right now” is a just reason. And yes, I acknowledge that that is an exception that basically swallows the rule.Not free to refuse without a just reason.
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Lea101
Guest
I still don’t see how this analogy is supposed to contradict my point though.
In both cases, the spouse who thinks they ‘have to have it’ are probably being really childish
In both cases, the spouse who thinks they ‘have to have it’ are probably being really childish
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tafan2
Guest
I think that is rather absurd and trying Certainly rape is a form of extreme torture. So is forcibly making people drink water until they are sick. The analogy I gave is very simple. We have responsibilities to our kids we cannot ignore without sin, we have responsibilities to our wives that we cannot ignore without sin. Because either or both actions can be used in extremely immoral ways does not affect the anaI know. But I’m merely inviting people to speculate why we agree rape is wrong, but forcing your kids to eat isn’t. To point out that analogies like the one you gave cannot be compared to sex at all.
And I find that to be very dangerous thinking. Off the top of my head, I think it is likely around 50% of the time my wife and I have sex that one of us initiates it (ie requests) and the other did not even have it on their mind. In earlier days of the marriage this was not the case. Well, guess what, my wife brings it up, I have a duty to respond in a way that she thinks is wonderful, and 99% (if not 100%) that’s how it ends up being for both of us.Because we feel like not being interested at the moment is a reasonable request. Since most spouses wouldn’t want to have sex with someone that personally doesn’t want to, it would be a reasonable scenario.
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Lea101
Guest
You would be pregnant. You would have that kid soon. Along with being pregnant, a lot of women would experience unpleasant effects. For some unlucky women, they would experience severe health issues.
For a lot of husbands and also wives, it would mean finances would take a hit.
For a lot of husbands and also wives, it would mean finances would take a hit.
Well duh. I am referring to sex. Where the just reason is already addressed and hence, they have decided that they don’t want to have kids at the moment.Not even a just reason for NFP itself— a just reason goes beyond that.
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BoomBoomMancini
Guest
There’s a world of difference between “I hadn’t thought of it, but now that you mention it, sure.” and “I’ve considered and I’m really not in the mood right now.”And I find that to be very dangerous thinking. Off the top of my head, I think it is likely around 50% of the time my wife and I have sex that one of us initiates it (ie requests) and the other did not even have it on their mind.
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Lea101
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I do think people on both sides are struggling with this. People who insist on the marital debt may also refuse to accept reasonable requests because they are against feminism and autonomy reminds them of that. Perhaps.I think this issue has gotten very clouded by the idea that women have “autonomy” over their bodies— when that is simply not true in marriage. St Paul says it himself, neither he husband nor the wife does.
But also that verse you are referring to cannot be taken simply. We do have autonomy, technically. Or else rape wouldn’t be seen as wrong, since the ‘husband owns her body’.
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tafan2
Guest
What do you mean “before you changed your mind”? If what you mean is, “we both agreed and just because you are a little h?&n* tonight” then certainly yes that is reasonable. If what you mean is, two years ago we agreed to postpone having a baby, and I don’t care what you think now? No, that is not reasonable. Both spouses need to agree to not have kids. But I will add, before I am completely made to be a Neanderthal, both spouses need to agree to have kids also. So it would be doubly important for the requesting spouse to let it go and have the conversation about kids later and come to a common understanding.
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tafan2
Guest
Sorry, not even remotely true. I can speak from lots of experience here. I might not feel like having sex, but my wife is more than capable (with very little effort) to make the anatomy functional. Its a matter of the mind, not the genital function.“I don’t feel like it right now” is not only a just reason, it’s a practical reason. If a man doesn’t feel like it, sex is nearly impossible…think about it, people. Anatomy and physiology anyone??
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Lea101
Guest
Again, different scenario.And I find that to be very dangerous thinking. Off the top of my head, I think it is likely around 50% of the time my wife and I have sex that one of us initiates it (ie requests) and the other did not even have it on their mind.
There’s a difference between someone not being turned on and then finding out ‘oh! Now I want to do this’ vs ‘nah I still don’t feel it, please stop doing xyz’.
There’s is a huuuuggeee difference between someone who wasn’t interested but now is, and someone who doesn’t want to have sex.
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tafan2
Guest
Again, I stated very clearly, multiple times, illness is a reasonable cause for refusal always. If sex is uncomfortable or even painful, that should be worked on a treated, but while the condition exists, it certainly falls under the category of illness.With a woman, if she doesn’t feel like, it’s going to be uncomfortable or even painful. Anatomy and physiology again.
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Lea101
Guest
That’s what I meant. I strongly believe couples need to ‘revisit’ Nfp and discuss if they should still postpone or not.If what you mean is, “we both agreed and just because you are a little h?&n* tonight”
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