Marital Debt

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Yikes! I’m in serious debt to my husband! But last night I was exhausted, the night before my back was killing me and the night before that my neck and shoulders hurt! You think I’m joking? I have chronic fatigue syndrome and arthritis throughout my spine(among other things) while my husband is healthy,younger and would like to do it as often as a jack rabbit. How in the world am I supposed to repay this “debt”?
 
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Celeste88:
Yikes! I’m in serious debt to my husband! But last night I was exhausted, the night before my back was killing me and the night before that my neck and shoulders hurt! You think I’m joking? I have chronic fatigue syndrome and arthritis throughout my spine(among other things) while my husband is healthy,younger and would like to do it as often as a jack rabbit. How in the world am I supposed to repay this “debt”?
Never a debt to repay. It appears that you had a reason. I am sure your husband was understanding of your pain.
 
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Celeste88:
Yikes! I’m in serious debt to my husband! But last night I was exhausted, the night before my back was killing me and the night before that my neck and shoulders hurt! You think I’m joking? I have chronic fatigue syndrome and arthritis throughout my spine(among other things) while my husband is healthy,younger and would like to do it as often as a jack rabbit. How in the world am I supposed to repay this “debt”?
Celeste, it should be plain enough from this preceding material that legitemate medical obstacles preclude one from paying the debt, and it cannot be helped, and is sinless when it is really about that. It is up to you to discern by examing your own conscience. Sounds like your heart is in the right place anyway. The husband won’t have an easy time of it, but that is a reality in life sometimes.
 
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frogman80:
Have you ever been married? Are you married? Are you male or female?

So when it comes to sex, married people should not focus on unconditional love and support? It seems that you are saying feelings come above unconditional love and support. I am saying with unconditional love and support, “conducive” feeling will flow. In fact, I am also saying without unconditional love and support… finding mutual feelings… conducive to making love… will be difficult.

I think you are just misunderstanding how Catholics really view this. Please read this article to get a better understanding of a Catholic view point. Apparently I am not able to communicate this to you in my own words.

catholicculture.org/docs…cfm?recnum=1001
what has sex neccessarily got to do with support? it’s not like getting your dinner made for you, not like being listened to or comforted, or being hugged. It’s, er, sexual. I am male, unmarried, 26.

Yet again I’d ask, what is the man basing his arousal on when he knows his wife is only giving, and not receiving anything?
 
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cynic:
what has sex neccessarily got to do with support? it’s not like getting your dinner made for you, not like being listened to or comforted, or being hugged. It’s, er, sexual. I am male, unmarried, 26.

Yet again I’d ask, what is the man basing his arousal on when he knows his wife is only giving, and not receiving anything?
Wrong, wrong, wrong. It is (sometimes) like getting dinner made for you. It is like being listened to and comforted. It is like being hugged (and sometimes even includes being hugged).

With all those misconceptions, I do not begin to know how to answer your last question. It is like being told by someone that I am to assume that 2+2=5 and then tell them what 2+3 is. I wouldn’t know.
 
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cynic:
what has sex neccessarily got to do with support? it’s not like getting your dinner made for you, not like being listened to or comforted, or being hugged. It’s, er, sexual. I am male, unmarried, 26.

Yet again I’d ask, what is the man basing his arousal on when he knows his wife is only giving, and not receiving anything?
For one thing, it’s not true that the wife is not receiving anything. She is receiving the love of her spouse in return. Just b/c she’s not feeling passionate does not make her incapable of receiving or appreciating the loving advances of her husband. Those advances should make her feel quite cherished!

As for what the man’s basing his arousal on, I should think the answer to that is obvious. The man loves his wife, and knows that she loves him too, despite her temporary low libido. She is desirable to him for myriad reasons. Maybe just b/c she looks so darn cute cuddled up on the couch with her book. 😉 IT’S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE 😃

In marriage, sex has everything to do with support. That is the reason for the Church’s teaching. Since a person’s body and soul are so closely intertwined, it makes sense that BOTH the spiritual and physical aspects of married love are necessary in a marriage.
 
Very well said Consecrated! I beleive it was Fulton j. SHeen who said that “women recieve in a giving way” How many people get joy out of gving others Christmas gifts? It’s the same thing, the look on a loved ones face is well worth it, even if it was spendy or hard to find. Sex is a wonderful gift, and giving it in a sacramental way is something I look forward to experiencing once I get married.
 
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Consecrated:
For one thing, it’s not true that the wife is not receiving anything. She is receiving the love of her spouse in return. Just b/c she’s not feeling passionate does not make her incapable of receiving or appreciating the loving advances of her husband.

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actually I think it does. Sex is different… I don’t think anyone should have to submit to anything sexual out of a desire to be giving. It’s almost as if cathlics prefer that state of affairs, men can’t help themsleves, but women, oh no, they should idealy be passive.
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Consecrated:
As for what the man’s basing his arousal on, I should think the answer to that is obvious. The man loves his wife, and knows that she loves him too, despite her temporary low libido. She is desirable to him for myriad reasons. Maybe just b/c she looks so darn cute cuddled up on the couch with her book. 😉 IT’S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE 😃

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that is attraction not arousal.
 
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cynic:
actually I think it does. Sex is different… I don’t think anyone should have to submit to anything sexual out of a desire to be giving. It’s almost as if cathlics prefer that state of affairs, men can’t help themsleves, but women, oh no, they should idealy be passive.
Cynic, there is nothing wrong with us Catholics… you just have some self made misconceptions.

Where do you get your opinions on marriage? What Bible verses have you been reading? What philosophies have you studied? What experience do you have? Why can’t a woman give herself out of love to her husband? What is sex in your opinion? Is it just about what pleasure you get from the other? Your problem is you seem to have separated sex from love as something distinctly foreign to it.
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cynic:
Yet again I’d ask, what is the man basing his arousal on when he knows his wife is only giving, and not receiving anything?..

…that is attraction not arousal.
Again and again people have told you that this is not about a woman just “giving in” its about a meeting of the will… both parties want to make love… even through INITIALLY she may not feel 100% in the mood. (please read at least part (2) of this link: catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1001 ) Most women with good husbands will tell you that after a few minutes (or longer) moods melt away and change for the good.
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Katie1723:
And yes, given that the man knows what he’s doing, feelings can and do change during “warm up”…
 
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cynic:
actually I think it does. Sex is different… I don’t think anyone should have to submit to anything sexual out of a desire to be giving. It’s almost as if cathlics prefer that state of affairs, men can’t help themsleves, but women, oh no, they should idealy be passive.
The worldly definition of sex goes something like this: “I use you to get my pleasure, and you use me to get your pleasure, and as long as it feels good to both of us, it’s ok.” Even people who are married can have this idea of sex, but it’s certainly an accurate description of extra-marital relations.

The supernatural, original, Godly definition of sex goes something like this: “I accept your free gift of yourself in marriage, and freely give myself to you body and soul for the rest of our lives.”

The way you worded the above makes it sound like you’re basing your ideas about what is required of spouses on the first definition.

Whereas, the Church’s teaching of “the marriage debt” is based on the second, TRUE definition.
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cynic:
that is attraction not arousal.
Do I really need to explain to a grown man that the one follows the other so closely and naturally that they may as well be the same thing? (And this is a GOOD thing in marriage 😃 )
 
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frogman80:
Cynic, there is nothing wrong with us Catholics… you just have some self made misconceptions.

Where do you get your opinions on marriage? What Bible verses have you been reading? What philosophies have you studied? What experience do you have? Why can’t a woman give herself out of love to her husband? What is sex in your opinion? Is it just about what pleasure you get from the other? Your problem is you seem to have separated sex from love as something distinctly foreign to it.

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there has to be love, but you have separated desire from it (except on the mans part). You’re meant to have both, otherwise if it were just love, love as in selfless caring, then why would that need to be expressed sexually? Why not just say “I love you”, or renew your vows etc?
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Consecrated:
The supernatural, original, Godly definition of sex goes something like this: “I accept your free gift of yourself in marriage, and freely give myself to you body and soul for the rest of our lives.”
and what does that actually mean, specifically? It’s a good philosophy for the marriage, but not the bedroom . Hell, husband and wife are supposed to want each other, not purely to give. It’s flattering - glorifying - whatever you want to call it, to the other that each partner does. Maybe it’s an ego thing, but I’d be quite into the fact that my (hypothetical) wife wanted me, and wasn’t just doing it to please me. Quite frankly, It wouldn’t feel right if she didn’t.
 
Cynic… I think you have just misunderstood… I assume that you do not view marriage as a sacrament. This would make it difficult to understand. Have you read any part of that article yet? Here is a quick quote for you:

On Marriage…
…In entering into this union, each has given to the other (and to the other exclusively) the right to sexual union. Notice that sexual union is a thing due, a right: either is entitled to demand it of the other and, unless there is a very serious reason, neither can refuse it to the other… …The marriage act is a duty, certainly, but this is one duty that cannot be done simply as a duty: it must be done generously or it is not being done at all.
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cynic:
there has to be love, but you have separated desire from it (except on the mans part). ?
I have not seperated… just palced in order of importance.
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cynic:
You’re meant to have both, otherwise if it were just love, love as in selfless caring, then why would that need to be expressed sexually? Why not just say “I love you”, or renew your vows etc?
Yes… you are meant to have both! I think you have the idea that beginning selfless means you can’t experience pleasure. That is not true. Also, I do not understand your connection that “selfless” = “no reason for sex.”
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cynic:
and what does that actually mean, specifically? It’s a good philosophy for the marriage, but not the bedroom. Hell, husband and wife are supposed to want each other, not purely to give. It’s flattering - glorifying - whatever you want to call it, to the other that each partner does. Maybe it’s an ego thing, but I’d be quite into the fact that my (hypothetical) wife wanted me, and wasn’t just doing it to please me. Quite frankly, It wouldn’t feel right if she didn’t.?
If it is a good philosophy for marriage, then it should be a great philosophy for the bedroom. Why should sex and marriage be separated in such away that they need to be treated differently? And again, you are right… husbanded and wife should always “want each other”… you CAN desire someone, but still not be in the mood. I desire my wife, but I also desire sleep… should she come first, or should my sleep come first?

The more giving you are to your spouse… the more pleasurable / enjoyable it is for yourself.
 
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CuriousInIL:
This has been quite interesting but has gotten away from my original post quite a bit.

Let me try to rephrase.

Assuming (and that means not debating) the existence of the church teaching that there is a marital debt, i.e., an obligation of a spouse to comply with a reasonable request for marital relations,
  1. What is the church teaching, if any, as to whether being on your period is sufficient in and of itself to be an appropriate reason to refuse an otherwise reasonable request?
  2. What is your personal opinion on the issue, reasonable or not? Would you/do you refuse or not? Would you/ do you make any such requests?
  3. Is this an issue in your marriage and how, if at all, was it resolved?
Whew, this is quite a thread. Just wanted to say that we abstain during menses because I’ve heard/read that intercourse during this time can lead to to or increase endometriosis.
This is an obvious medical reason for abstaining for all women, assuming it’s true that intercourse during menses can actually cause this condition.
 
Anthony's Mom:
Whew, this is quite a thread. Just wanted to say that we abstain during menses because I’ve heard/read that intercourse during this time can lead to to or increase endometriosis.
This is an obvious medical reason for abstaining for all women, assuming it’s true that intercourse during menses can actually cause this condition.
I google searched the topic, and there seems to be conflicting evidence:
Q. Is it true that intercourse during the menstrual cycle increases the risk of endometriosis?
A. This has not been proved. It has been suggested that intercourse during menses might increase tubal activity and increase the backflow of the menstrual cycle through the tubes and thus increase the risk of endometriosis. However, there are no statistics to bear this out.
In fact, another website suggested that intercourse during menses could actually prevent endometriosis, and yet another was aimed at refuting this evidence.
 
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vluvski:
I google searched the topic, and there seems to be conflicting evidence:

In fact, another website suggested that intercourse during menses could actually prevent endometriosis, and yet another was aimed at refuting this evidence.
Agreed that the evidence is far from conclusive. That being said, I don’t think that a wife is bound to engage in intercouse during a time that could potentially be a heath-risk for her. Hopefully the husband wouldn’t request this but if he did I think that she has grounds for a refusal. Given that there is medical evidence on both sides of the argument, it is not a sin to be cautious regarding your health.
 
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cynic:
there has to be love, but you have separated desire from it (except on the mans part). You’re meant to have both, otherwise if it were just love, love as in selfless caring, then why would that need to be expressed sexually? Why not just say “I love you”, or renew your vows etc?
Because, that is what the marital embrace is, the gift of expressing love for one another
2360: In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion.
2363 THe spouses’ union acheieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. THese two meanings or values of marriage cannot be seperated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family. The conjugal love of man and woman this stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

Sex is a gift to married couples. God gives them the ability to express their love for one another in a way no one else can. When couples are dating, they can kiss and say I love you, but they have limitations put upon them to kepe themselves from sinning in thought and action, like no passionate kissing because it prepares the body for sex. No sex because sex is a gift we recieve AFTER we are married, not before. So, are you saying that we shoudl ignore this gift we are given and simply do what courting couples do? No one is saying that if the wife’s mother dies that she has to fulfill her husbands request for sex, that would be wrong, but simply saying “I’m not in the mood.” is not enough. She has to COMMUNICATE her reasons as does her HUSBAND. Please tell me you understand that the majority of your issues with this topic will be solved by the couple COMMUNICATING with one another. Can you see that? COMMUNICATION will take care of a lot of this. If the wife says that she isn’t in the mood her husband should ask WHY NOT??? and she should answer the question so they can discuss the situation!!! I’ll say in tone more time COMMUNICATION!!!
 
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