Marital Sex and Conflicting Information?

[robdaddyf]

First of all please be warned that what follows could be considered “explicit” by some and look no further if you would be tempted in any way by conversations regarding marital love/sex and the like.

My wife and I have both read various chapters in books, articles and such regarding what forms of sex are permitted as Catholics…can you help?

One example is on one hand we’ve read that it’s permissible to use manual/oral stimulation on one another as long as it doesn’t lead to orgasm. Yet we’ve also heard that these forms of marital love are acceptable as long as it isn’t done “merely for our own pleasure” in essence, “we would both be self-giving.” Any help would be appreciated. We certainly want to hold to the Church teachings but from our sources the lines are a bit blurry.

Also, what forms of marital relations are NOT permitted?

I know this can be a sensitive subject so I’m sorry if what follows becomes offensive to anyone.

 

[yochumjy]

The book “Holy Sex” by Dr. Popcak is a great book for questions like this. In it’s most simple form, orgasm for the man must occur in the vagina of his wife, which is making the act open to life (one of your wedding vows ) The wedding vows should be fulfilled in the act…ie no coercion, forcing, should respect the dignity of each other etc. Other than that most anything goes. There are reasons that one of you could not be comfortable with a specific act and that should be addressed between you and possibly a counselor if you find it necessary. Dr. Popcak also has a staff of counselors that are pretty helpful (I’ve been a recipient of that myself).

HTH

John

 

[kage_ar]

There is a division within the thinking of Catholic moral theologians.

A large group of orthodox teachers embrace the Theology of the Body ideas, writings of Christopher West and Greg Popcak will give you that POV.

 

[stinkcat_14]

There is a division within the thinking of Catholic moral theologians.

A large group of orthodox teachers embrace the Theology of the Body ideas, writings of Christopher West and Greg Popcak will give you that POV.

Just curious, but what is the opposing view?

 

[Seatuck]

First of all please be warned that what follows could be considered “explicit” by some and look no further if you would be tempted in any way by conversations regarding marital love/sex and the like.

My wife and I have both read various chapters in books, articles and such regarding what forms of sex are permitted as Catholics…can you help?

One example is on one hand we’ve read that it’s permissible to use manual/oral stimulation on one another as long as it doesn’t lead to orgasm. Yet we’ve also heard that these forms of marital love are acceptable as long as it isn’t done “merely for our own pleasure” in essence, “we would both be self-giving.” Any help would be appreciated. We certainly want to hold to the Church teachings but from our sources the lines are a bit blurry.

Also, what forms of marital relations are NOT permitted?

I know this can be a sensitive subject so I’m sorry if what follows becomes offensive to anyone.

All marital acts must be both procreative and unitive in nature. So if you are talking about leaving out intercourse in the interest of being self giving , no it is not acceptable by anyone on either side.

The division Kage mentions involves the foreplay part.

Take a look at Theology of the Body( or one of the many studies on it)

Karol Wojtyla’s Love and Responsibility,

The Good News about Sex and Marriage by Christopher West or some of his other material

The book Kage mentioned. Although he definitely delves into the area of division in a stronger way than Christopher West in my opinion.

You say you have read some stuff so just in case you haven’t read these I gave you the above.

 

[kage_ar]

Just curious, but what is the opposing view?

Those who think any kind of foreplay or after play is a send you to hell sin. The “puritain” Catholics.

 

[curl]

I hope you folks had a better weekend than me… My wife and I were having quite a nice weekend until I made the mistake of trying to introduce some of the Theology of the Body to explain why I could manually stimulate her to orgasm, but she couldn’t do the same for me. I managed to create an entirely new area of marital argument (as if we didn’t have enough of them already).

Praying for I-don’t-know-what,

• curl

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Those who think any kind of foreplay or after play is a send you to hell sin. The “puritain” Catholics.

I know that there are lay catholics who believe that but I wasn’t aware that there were theologians who taught that. Which theologians are you talking about?

 

[CathModerate]

Because we practice intercourse without condoms my wife and I find no problem from time to time enjoying oral/manual orgasms as well.

 

[Texas_Mommy]

I haven’t read any of those books. I just came here to find information. I am a practicing Catholic and so is my husband.

He has asked me to perform a sexual act that I am not comfortable with doing. He seems to be in extreme need of this but I can’t help but feel afraid. We’ve been married for almost four years and have two children. It isn’t the first time he’s asked. I have just been putting him off. Now I feel guilty for denying him but I simply don’t want to do this.

He hasn’t forced me but he becomes more insistent and tells me it isn’t against Catholic teaching because we’re married but it isn’t procreative either. Please tell me what I can do. Thank you.

 

[Red_Meg]

He has asked me to perform a sexual act that I am not comfortable with doing. He seems to be in extreme need of this but I can’t help but feel afraid. We’ve been married for almost four years and have two children. It isn’t the first time he’s asked. I have just been putting him off. Now I feel guilty for denying him but I simply don’t want to do this.

Oh dear. 1) He should not be pressuring you to do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable, objectified, disrespected, or as you put it, “afraid.” Full stop.

1. If the act(s) in question constitutes “foreplay” and culminates in completion of the marital act in the normal, natural way (i.e. ejaculation in the vagina) it is considered morally permissible. However, Rule #1 still applies. Contrariwise, acts that deliberately lead to non-vaginal ejaculation are considered immoral. Married or not, doesn’t matter. Still wrong.

Best,

Margaret

 

[Seatuck]

Because we practice intercourse without condoms my wife and I find no problem from time to time enjoying oral/manual orgasms as well.

Well, the moral theology of the church has a problem with it. All acts must ordered toware being procreative as well as unitive.

 

[Seatuck]

The book Kage mentioned. Although he definitely delves into the area of division in a stronger way than Christopher West in my opinion.

I have to correct myself. I did not mean to imply that he is in the no fore or after play camp but that he takes the other side but to an end in some places where I have not seen a moral theologian go.
Also Kage did not mention the book outright but another poster did.
So I guess you could say there are 3 camps. One very rigid in this area, one moderate and one way liberal in interpreting moral theology.

The thing is that I agree with Pocak on 98 % of what he say so take that 2% with a grain of salt. The vast majority of his book agrees with what I know to be good solid church teaching.I know his book will help a lot of people.

I’d also recommend it to those who are having sexual issues in their marriage. Ask your spouse to read it with you .

 

[Seatuck]

I haven’t read any of those books. I just came here to find information. I am a practicing Catholic and so is my husband.

He has asked me to perform a sexual act that I am not comfortable with doing. He seems to be in extreme need of this but I can’t help but feel afraid. We’ve been married for almost four years and have two children. It isn’t the first time he’s asked. I have just been putting him off. Now I feel guilty for denying him but I simply don’t want to do this.

He hasn’t forced me but he becomes more insistent and tells me it isn’t against Catholic teaching because we’re married but it isn’t procreative either. Please tell me what I can do. Thank you.

That is tough. You want to be close and please each other and so on.
I would recommend the Holy Sex book for you because he goes into how to navigate difference of preferences. Perhaps your husband doesn’t quite understand the church teaching in light of his upbringing or societal norms. Read it together and then you’ll have things to discuss . The Good News book might be helpful also. You might see that some things that you thought weren’t allowed actually are -within reason.

 

[kage_ar]

I know that there are lay catholics who believe that but I wasn’t aware that there were theologians who taught that. Which theologians are you talking about?

I don’t follow/keep the writings of those with this train of thought.

There is a poster here with the handle of “Ron Conte”, he follows that school of teaching and could direct you to other resources.

You could also google for those who waged the public smear campaign against Christopher West several months ago.

 

[puzzleannie]

do whatever you want in the bedroom as long as you are not using an practice or artificial device to thwart conception, and as long as the general idea is to climax in the way and place God greated for that purpose, and as long as you both find these practices fulfilling–if one person is disgusted by the practice that is a no no. It is a fact of nature that just starting out with a plan is enough to make the whole thing happen–you get tired, the kids interrupt, or hey it’s not your night. That does not negate your best efforts, and it does not mean you can’t make a gesture of affection without going all the way each and every time.

relax, have fun, and be open to life, and use every opportunity to show your love to your spouse. this is not rocket science. and you don’t need a degree in moral theology. and make sure the door is locked so the kids can’t get in.

if one or the other party cannot enjoy, climax or feel like they have had sex in the normal way, but needs something kinky, that is the time for counselling.

He has asked me to perform a sexual act that I am not comfortable with doing

that is a deal breaker. neither party can put the other in that position, so to speak. if you don’t both enjoy it it becomes manipulation or degenerates into objectification and mutual masturbation, which is not marital intercourse. If you feel used, you propably are being used.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Because we practice intercourse without condoms my wife and I find no problem from time to time enjoying oral/manual orgasms as well.

Please take the time to look into what the Church teaches on the marital embrace. As it was mentioned previously, the act must be procreative and unitive. “Not using condoms” does not give you a free pass to do anything that you want. If you are not ejaculating inside of your wife, that act is not ordered towards procreation.

I haven’t read any of those books. I just came here to find information. I am a practicing Catholic and so is my husband.

He has asked me to perform a sexual act that I am not comfortable with doing. He seems to be in extreme need of this but I can’t help but feel afraid. We’ve been married for almost four years and have two children. It isn’t the first time he’s asked. I have just been putting him off. Now I feel guilty for denying him but I simply don’t want to do this.

He hasn’t forced me but he becomes more insistent and tells me it isn’t against Catholic teaching because we’re married but it isn’t procreative either. Please tell me what I can do. Thank you.

He should not be forcing you to perform an act that you are not comfortable performing. Irregardless if the act is not open to life or not. If he is asking you to perform oral stimulation on him and you do ont want to, it woudl be sinful for him to force you to do this. I have heard many good priests say that within the confides of marriage as long as the act includes the husband’s ejaculation inside of his wife’s vagina, how you get there is up to the couple as long as it is not an offensive act to either person and not degrading to either person.

I think that you both should check out the books that have been mentioned above.

 

[andyandely1997]

Because we practice intercourse without condoms my wife and I find no problem from time to time enjoying oral/manual orgasms as well.

From paragraph 2370 in the Catechism:
These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:

Marriage is not just between the spouses. It is a Sacrament of the Church which involves God. When we do our own thing & ignore the teachings of the Church, we are also telling God to stay out of this part of our life.

 

[robdaddyf]

I haven’t read any of those books. I just came here to find information. I am a practicing Catholic and so is my husband.

He has asked me to perform a sexual act that I am not comfortable with doing. He seems to be in extreme need of this but I can’t help but feel afraid. We’ve been married for almost four years and have two children. It isn’t the first time he’s asked. I have just been putting him off. Now I feel guilty for denying him but I simply don’t want to do this.

He hasn’t forced me but he becomes more insistent and tells me it isn’t against Catholic teaching because we’re married but it isn’t procreative either. Please tell me what I can do. Thank you.

My suggestion is that you speak with a Priest about it…first you then if necessary both of you. I know enough to know that sex is very sacred and not to be trifled with. Also, I hesitate to offer things like, “Hey your husband SHOULDN’T be doing this or that” as I don’t know many of the complicating (potentially) circumstances surrounding your relationship.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

I don’t follow/keep the writings of those with this train of thought.

There is a poster here with the handle of “Ron Conte”, he follows that school of teaching and could direct you to other resources.

You could also google for those who waged the public smear campaign against Christopher West several months ago.

OK, I’ve seen Ron Conte’s posts.

If that is who you’re talking about then there is nothing to take seriously. I am pretty sure that Ron is the founder and only member of that school of teaching.