Marital, unitive, procreative

[Lauds]

No sin if the man with 9 hungry children uses a condom, they are unreliable, besides anything goes in a Catholic marriage. Let them use condoms

 

[Lauds]

Let the Homosexuals do their thing & all the single do their thing too. Do You know that 50% or more children are born out of wedlock, Only God can will a conception, so how bad is it that these people are fornicating & bringing forth children through the will of God

 

[PaulinVA]

Let the Homosexuals do their thing & all the single do their thing too. Do You know that 50% or more children are born out of wedlock, Only God can will a conception, so how bad is it that these people are fornicating & bringing forth children through the will of God

God created the biology involved. How a conception occurs is a scientific fact - it’s a process. Two unmarried people can be co-creators with God by engaging in those acts that only married people should be doing. It is not God’s will that unmarried people engage in sex and abuse the ability to create new life.

 

[Lauds]

WEll, thats your opinion, he blesses them with children doesnt he, sometime with many children, while other validly married people cannot conceive. None of us know the mind of God, Or ever will

 

[Major_Tom]

I am making a theological argument.

I can’t infer the answer to this question based on your posts, so to be clear, I’ll ask…

Are you suggesting that your theological argument is A) completely in keeping with the Church’s teaching; B) inconsistent with the Church’s teaching, that is to say, more conservative than the Church’s current teaching; or C) addresses a nuanced area that the Church does not address?

I’m not trying to trip you up, just trying to clarify the myriad “you’re missing my point” posts that can muddy the water (at least for me).

 

[Seatuck]

Ron, I think it is time for you to get your writings and webpage reviewed by your Bishop so that you can gain some credibility.

 

[John21652]

No sin if the man with 9 hungry children uses a condom, they are unreliable, besides anything goes in a Catholic marriage. Let them use condoms

If the children are hungry he shouldn’t be spending money on condoms. You see, not everything goes in a Catholic marriage, because if that were true, it wouldn’t be a Catholic marriage.

 

[Lauds]

If the children are hungry he shouldn’t be spending money on condoms. You see, not everything goes in a Catholic marriage, because if that were true, it wouldn’t be a Catholic marriage.

From what I gather, anything goes within the bedrom walls, so let the poor man use condoms, it`s better than bringing another child into the world to starve, condoms are cheap, probably free . I doubt it is a sin to use them Catholics use all forms of birth control, a condom is better

 

[John21652]

Let the Homosexuals do their thing & all the single do their thing too. Do You know that 50% or more children are born out of wedlock, Only God can will a conception, so how bad is it that these people are fornicating & bringing forth children through the will of God

Conceptions are brought about through the use of Free Will. God doesn’t interfere with free will. Misusing that free will results in 50% of children being born out of wedlock and thus giving rise to all sorts of emotional and social problems. That’s what happens when free will is abused contrary to God’s plan.

 

[Lauds]

Conceptions are brought about through the use of Free Will. God doesn’t interfere with free will. Misusing that free will results in 50% of children being born out of wedlock and thus giving rise to all sorts of emotional and social problems. That’s what happens when free will is abused contrary to God’s plan.

God alone wills every conception , even in the case of rape or incest. THey say fornication is a sin, but many fornicators are blessed with children,because God wills the conception, You cannot deny that

 

[John21652]

God alone wills every conception , even in the case of rape or incest. THey say fornication is a sin, but many fornicators are blessed with children,because God wills the conception, You cannot deny that

I can deny it and I do deny it.
Rape and incest are misuses of free will.
Fornicators who conceive children are not purposefully wanting children. The children are born because people misuse free will and the mechanisms put in place by God produce children out side the context of God’s plan. The result is angst, unhappiness, social, moral and emotional decay in our society.

 

[Lauds]

I can deny it and I do deny it.
Rape and incest are misuses of free will.
Fornicators who conceive children are not purposefully wanting children. The children are born because people misuse free will and the mechanisms put in place by God produce children out side the context of God’s plan. The result is angst, unhappiness, social, moral and emotional decay in our society.

Well, You are wrong, God wills the conception not the fornicators as well as he wills a conception in cases of rape & incest, thats why the church forbids abortion

 

[John21652]

Well, You are wrong, God wills the conception not the fornicators as well as he wills a conception in cases of rape & incest, thats why the church forbids abortion

I am not wrong.
The Church forbids abortion because of the sanctity of human life. Human life is sacred regardless of how it is conceived. An unborn and a new born are innocents. Innocents should be protected. The Church strives to protect them, even when they are born of the misuse of free will.

It is not possible that God wills a conception from an evil act.

 

[LittleDeb]

Excellent idea Seatuck!

Ron: never once on any post in my 5+ years on these fora have I ever stated that an oral or manual act to climax is moral. I very clearly wrote that masturbation and so-called “oral sex” are always immoral. Strawman arguments against *me *on that topic are absurd. My posting history here is very consistent. And as supported in the documents *you *quote, my position is correct. Procreation is spelled out as the primary purpose and “mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love,” (the definition of “unity”) are listed as secondary purposes and lastly the cure for concupiscence is listed.

I have devoted the last 17 years to the study of this *one *topic. I have sought out the world’s leading (living) authority on TOB and the encyclicals on marriage, Dr. Michael Waldstein, for clarification. You are welcome to say that I have a flawed understanding of something like justification, but on this *one *topic, I go straight to the theologians who have *complete *approval from the Magisterium. When there are holes in my understanding of the marriage encyclicals, *they *will set me straight, not you.

Your argument is simple. You are positing that acts of oral or manual stimulation in preparation for the marital act are “unnatural sexual acts.” I have studied the documents you are quoting. And I have studied them in depth (Note: one is quoted in my signature line.) Nowhere in any of those documents is that idea ever supported.

You don’t seem to know your history and you don’t seem to grasp the very context of the encyclicals you have studied. Manual and oral stimulation are *not *unnatural sexual acts. The acts they were writing against are *different *acts.

You do realize that you have someone supporting you in this thread who is both pro-masturbation and pro-condom. Do you see what kind of confusion you cause? I joined this thread because I have been sent links to your pontificating on CAF by someone you confused.

I would like to be able to spend my time helping people understand why contraception is *always *an affront to marriage and why it destroys so many marriages. But instead I have to put out fires that you have started about foreplay!!

 

[Lauds]

I am not wrong.
The Church forbids abortion because of the sanctity of human life. Human life is sacred regardless of how it is conceived. An unborn and a new born are innocents. Innocents should be protected. The Church strives to protect them, even when they are born of the misuse of free will.

It is not possible that God wills a conception from an evil act.

God wills all conceptions, any couple can commit the sex act, but only God can will the conception
& it is He that wills it. Human life is created by God, no matter how the conception occurred. I was blown away by this when I first heard it too, directly from the priest in my parish while we were having a conversation about it in the rectory. It was enuff to weaken my faith, but then he gave me a book to read, & it explains all different weird things that God permits

 

[LittleDeb]

You are welcome! The Song of Solomon is one of the most beautiful expressions of sexual pleasure ever written in the history of mankind.

I stand firmly with the Catholic Church on the sanctity of marriage, abortion, end of life and homosexuality issues. But on certain matters, these self appointed authorities often overstep the bounds of moral guidance and good sense.

Nowhere in the Bible can one find such obsessive, legalistic intrusion on the physical intimacy that is to be shared between a husband and wife of faith. Sex is being treated as a necessary evil. One must wonder how many god fearing catholics experience shame and guilt as a result of the physical pleasure they might have experienced immediately after or even during sex.

There seems to be this no-win situation when it comes to the physically pleasurable aspect of sex. One look through these forums is proof that many good people are suffering terribly with an unhealthy fixation on all of the sexual legalism that has been set up by celibate clergymen to the point where there is no room left for pleasure that the Almighty has designed into our sexual being.

Catholic Authors like Popcak and Christopher West can say what they want, but sexual legalism is always there lurking in the background. A Hatian father of 9 hungry children spends ten days digging in the rubble of the earthquake looking for survivors is tired but wants to be with his wife tonight. If he uses a condom he commits mortal sin? It’s all a bit creepy.

I would really like to discuss this with you more in depth in another thread if you are interested. You make many good points and I at one time would have agreed with every single bit.

But I ask you to roll an idea around and get back to me if you want to discuss it another thread. What if the use of condoms is the “legalism” and the marriage act really is destroyed with them?

 

[John21652]

God wills all conceptions, any couple can commit the sex act, but only God can will the conception
& it is He that wills it. Human life is created by God, no matter how the conception occurred. I was blown away by this when I first heard it too, directly from the priest in my parish while we were having a conversation about it in the rectory. It was enuff to weaken my faith, but then he gave me a book to read, & it explains all different weird things that God permits

Well mate, you need a new priest and a new book, is all I can say…

 

[LittleDeb]

God wills all conceptions, any couple can commit the sex act, but only God can will the conception
& it is He that wills it. Human life is created by God, no matter how the conception occurred. I was blown away by this when I first heard it too, directly from the priest in my parish while we were having a conversation about it in the rectory. It was enuff to weaken my faith, but then he gave me a book to read, & it explains all different weird things that God permits

You have blurred the line of *deliberate *will verses *permissive *will. They are not interchangeable.

God *permitted *the conception because he designed the reproductive act to do what it does. But he did not *deliberately *will the conception. By saying that God “permits” something it is to clarify that nothing is a surprise to God. In God’s perfect (deliberate) will, we all exist as the perfect souls he creates. His permissive will is what makes our free will possible. In the case of rape He has not divinely intervened against free will or the design of the body. The *person *conceived is perfect and sinless. The situation surrounding the conception is tainted by sin. He *permits *sin. He does not desire it.

There is a HUGE difference between God’s deliberate will vs. God’s permissive will. Blurring the line leads to things like IVF, condoms, and eugenics.

 

[OraLabora]

You have blurred the line of *deliberate *will verses *permissive *will. They are not interchangeable.

God *permitted *the conception because he designed the reproductive act to do what it does. But he did not *deliberately *will the conception. By saying that God “permits” something it is to clarify that nothing is a surprise to God. In God’s perfect (deliberate) will, we all exist as the perfect souls he creates. His permissive will is what makes our free will possible. In the case of rape He has not divinely intervened against free will or the design of the body. The *person *conceived is perfect and sinless. The situation surrounding the conception is tainted by sin. He *permits *sin. He does not desire it.

There is a HUGE difference between God’s deliberate will vs. God’s permissive will. Blurring the line leads to things like IVF, condoms, and eugenics.

Very well put, thank you. I will file this for future reference for help in dealing someone very close to me with Calvinist leanings who thinks God deliberately wills everything.

 

[LittleDeb]

Very well put, thank you. I will file this for future reference for help in dealing someone very close to me with Calvinist leanings who thinks God deliberately wills everything.

I personally think that a lot of the problems with Calvinist thinking is rooted in that problem.

His permissive will is what makes our free will possible. In the case of rape He has not divinely intervened against free will or the design of the body. The *person *conceived is perfect and sinless. The situation surrounding the conception is tainted by sin. He *permits *sin. He does not desire it.

I do want to clarify part because the way I phrased it could be misunderstood. God *deliberately *wants all the souls that He creates. He just *permits *us to conceive them in ways we shouldn’t. And further, the person conceived has no *personal *sin, but is conceived with the stain of Original Sin just like the rest of us.

In other words God deliberately wanted the person conceived by IVF. He did *not *want the parents to use immoral means for conception. With God, all things are possible. We need to conform our will to his deliberate will instead of trying to rely on forgiveness after his permissive will.