Mark 16:15-16

[NFrancis]

Mark 16:15-120 (New International Version)

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

What is this saying? I have some ideas but want your (name removed by moderator)ut.

God, being all-loving, certainly could not just condemn someone to Hell just for not believing in Him. Maybe it is referring to someone who does not believe because they do not want to believe for their own selfish reasons. I would also like to note that it does not say that you will go to Hell if you are not baptized- this could indicate that to believe in some kind of loving God is to “know God” enough- kind of like meeting a new person and knowing how the generally are but you don’t totally know that person.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Mark 16:15-120 (New International Version)

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

What is this saying? I have some ideas but want your (name removed by moderator)ut.

We are born into this world separated from God, and if we die in that state we will be lost. In order to be saved we must obtain the state of grace, which gives supernatural life to our soul, makes us “a partaker of the divine nature”, and an “adopted child of God”. In order for an adult to obtain the state of grace, he must first have faith - “without faith it is impossible to pleasr God”. If an adult has faith, he will receive the life of grace through baptism.

That is why Jesus said two things are necessary for salvation, but only one for damnation. The two things necessary for salvation are faith, and baptism. The only thing required for damnation is a lack of faith, since a person who does not have faith cannot receive the life of grace.

For a baby (or someone who does not have the use of reason, and therefore cannot make an act of faith), they receive both faith and grace at baptism, when the two are infused into their soul.

We have to remember that man comes into this world separated from God and on the road to hell. Unless he converts and obtains the state of grace, he will not be saved.

 

[NFrancis]

We are born into this world separated from God, and if we die in that state we will be lost. In order to be saved we must obtain the state of grace, which gives supernatural life to our soul, makes us “a partaker of the divine nature”, and an “adopted child of God”. In order for an adult to obtain the state of grace, he must first have faith - “without faith it is impossible to pleasr God”. If an adult has faith, he will receive the life of grace through baptism.

That is why Jesus said two things are necessary for salvation, but only one for damnation. The two things necessary for salvation are faith, and baptism. The only thing required for damnation is a lack of faith, since a person who does not have faith cannot receive the life of grace.

For a baby (or someone who does not have the use of reason, and therefore cannot make an act of faith), they receive both faith and grace at baptism, when the two are infused into their soul.

We have to remember that man comes into this world separated from God and on the road to hell. Unless he converts and obtains the state of grace, he will not be saved.

If someone has the FULL faith, as in the Christian faith, they will know that they should be baptized. However someone can have part of the faith and can be considered having “part” communion with the Church. They may live good lives and know that there is an all-loving God but they may not be sure about all the specifics. They surely would not be sent to Hell for all eternity for not knowing the whole Truth. They would have to be purified in some way though so they would probably have to go through Purgatory.

 

[Atemi]

Mark 16:15-120 (New International Version)

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

What is this saying? I have some ideas but want your (name removed by moderator)ut.

This is saying that the disciples of Christ are commissioned to take the Gospel to all people.

Those that believe this Gospel and get baptised will be saved.

Those who do not believe will be condemned.

God, being all-loving, certainly could not just condemn someone to Hell just for not believing in Him.

Not believing in one’s Creator is sin.

Believing in one’s self is a sin.

Believing in someone that does not exist and giving this invention the honor due to God alone is sin.

These are some of the greatest sins possible.

God being all loving certainly would condemn someone for such wicked sins. If He didn’t, we could not say He is all loving.

I would also like to note that it does not say that you will go to Hell if you are not baptized

This is true.

…

 

[Bookcat]

From the Catechism:

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Of course …whoever is saved…will enter salvation though Jesus…it will be he who saves them…

 

[Bookcat]

Mark 16:15-120 (New International Version)

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

What is this saying?

We must proclaim Jesus Christ…we must proclaim the gospel…

Here is a whole important work to read:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20071203_nota-evangelizzazione_en.html

 

[NFrancis]

Not believing in one’s Creator is sin.

Believing in one’s self is a sin.

Believing in someone that does not exist and giving this invention the honor due to God alone is sin.

These are some of the greatest sins possible.

God being all loving certainly would condemn someone for such wicked sins. If He didn’t, we could not say He is all loving.
…

How can believing in something that is false be a sin as long as you have a good intention. They believe in what they think is right, what they think is the truth; you cannot logically say that they are sinning if someone is misled. However, having pride and not acknowledging ones creator is a sin provided that you have the knowledge. If you do not know you are sinning then it is not a sin. Additionally, to commit mortal sin, full knowledge is one of the requirements, which would be lacking in this circumstance.

 

[Atemi]

How can believing in something that is false be a sin as long as you have a good intention.

Sin never has a good intention.

There is a reason why any sinner would believe what is false, and it is not a good reason. This is why idolatry is constantly condemned throughout the Word of God. It is never, ever, ever excused by God because someone “meant well.”

And as it is correctly said, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

They believe in what they think is right

Yes.

And that is their sin.

Pro 14:12 “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.”

you cannot logically say that they are sinning if someone is misled.

Eve was not held guiltless for her deception.

No one can deceive us without our consent.

If you do not know you are sinning then it is not a sin.

This is not the testimony of God on this issue.

Unintentional sin is still sin. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Num 15:27 " 'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering."

Blood must be shed even for such sins as these.

…

 

[NFrancis]

I need to go to sleep soon. I’ll check back tomorrow.

And just wondering, are you Catholic?

 

[Atemi]

I need to go to sleep soon. I’ll check back tomorrow.

Have a good night. Rest well.

And just wondering, are you Catholic?

I am a catholic Christian, but not any of the many brands of “Catholic.”

…

 

[gtrenewed]

Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power, and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”

Why is it you want to diminish what Scripture says? God puts it in us to seek Him. If He does that, then He also must make the way for us to make a choice.

We must believe the Gospel and act on that belief by being baptized. That is faith with works. Being “good” has no bearing on the matter for Jesus said no one is good and Paul re-emphasized this in Rom 3:23.

Just believe God’s Word for what it says and stop looking for loopholes. It’s God’s creation, God’s salvation, God’s rules…so just believe. If someone does not seem to fit into salvation…preach the Gospel while they live…after they die, what better judge to stand before than Jesus! Love the sinners…hate the sin. Know that each one of us will have a heart to heart with God before we are approved or condemned.

 

[Coder]

In Mark 16:13-14 we see that even disciples didn’t believe initially. I don’t think that they were condemned and they were rebuked by Jesus for not believing.
usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark16.htm

Therefore if we consider Mark 16:15-16 in light of this then refusal to believe may not be momentary decision but a person may have to persist obdurately in unbelief. Jesus appeared to the disciples and they had reason to believe after initially not believing. We Catholics should consider our obligation (in regards to Mark 16:15-16) to represent Jesus by our lives so that people will be led to believe.

At the same time this is a firm call that we must believe in order to be saved. I don’t think that people should view the condemnation as a “threat”. The human race was in darkness and Jesus offers us hope.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

One must keep in mind that Jesus frequently equates “belief” with obedience. In accordance with the semitic totality concept, a man and his actions were inextricably entwined. Also, when the Bible says things like “believe, and you shall be saved” the Greek tense continues, implying that one must believe (in the sense of obedience) and KEEP believing to be saved. This applis to Christians and non-believers alike. If you don’t keep the faith, you will fall.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I see no reason to water down the words and assume that it is not exactly what it appears to be: a very stern warning. This concept, although distasteful to some, is found all throughout the Old Testament prophets. Jesus is our salvation. If you don’t believe in him, and it is a conscious act of will against God, then you go to hell. And if hell is eternal separation from God, then God is merely the greatest respecter of human choice. He respects your choice so much that you can live in eternity with it, since as you rejected in God in life, you will live without God in the afterlife.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

If someone has the FULL faith, as in the Christian faith, they will know that they should be baptized. However someone can have part of the faith and can be considered having “part” communion with the Church. They may live good lives and know that there is an all-loving God but they may not be sure about all the specifics. They surely would not be sent to Hell for all eternity for not knowing the whole Truth. They would have to be purified in some way though so they would probably have to go through Purgatory.

The faith that is necessary for salvation is the theological virtue of faith. In order to have the theological virtue of faith a person must believe four things explicitly: 1.) That there is a God, 2.) that He rewards the good and punished evil, 3.) that God is a Trinity, 3.), and the Incarnation.

In addition to those four doctrines that must be believed explicitly to be saved, a person must also believe all the other truths revealed by God (Catholic Dogmas) that have been made known to them. So, for example, if a person had only heard of the four above mentioned truths, and believed them, he could have the virtue of faith, but he would then have to believe in every other truth that had been explained to him (if they had been explained to him), such as purgatory, the Eucharist, that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, etc… If the other truths had not been explained to him, and if he did not reject them, he would believe them “implicitly”, rather than explicitly.

Members of false religions (Muslims, Huindus, Jews, etc) and heretical sects (such as the Protestants) reject truths that have been revealed by God. Therefore, if any member of those false religions knowingly rejects any Catholic dogmas, they thereby sin against the virtue of faith, and cannot be saved. Partial communion with the Catholic Church will save no one who rejects a truth that has been revealed by God, since doing so is a sin against the virtue of faith.

Here’s a good sermon on this topic.

 

[gtrenewed]

The faith that is necessary for salvation is the theological virtue of faith. In order to have the theological virtue of faith a person must believe four things explicitly: 1.) That there is a God, 2.) that He rewards the good and punished evil, 3.) that God is a Trinity, 3.), and the Incarnation.

That is theological lawyer-speak… What is necessary according to what Jesus said is to repent and to believe in Him whom the Father has sent. To repent (which you did not even mention) acknowledges our dependency on God alone for eternal life.
Sorry, you are not quite correct in your reasoning.

Partial communion with the Catholic Church will save no one who rejects a truth that has been revealed by God, since doing so is a sin against the virtue of faith.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

That is theological lawyer-speak… What is necessary according to what Jesus said is to repent and to believe in Him whom the Father has sent.

What does it mean to believe in Jesus? The Muslims believe in the Jesus, as do the Jehavoah’s Witnesses. Will their belief save them? No. Why? Because their belief about Jesus is false. They deny that He is the second Person of the Trinity, and God Incarnate. In order for a person to have supernatural faith, they must believe in the Trinity, and the Incarnation (that the second Person of the Trinity became man). Those are two truths associated with Jesus that must be explicitly believed.

To repent (which you did not even mention) acknowledges our dependency on God alone for eternal life.

Yes, repentance is necessary for those who are capable of repenting. For those incapable of repenting (such as babies, or seriously retarded people) baptism will suffice.

It is not a question of believing in the RCC, it is believing in Jesus that salvation comes.

It is both, since the RCC is the Church that Jesus founded, and that which e one that teaches what He taught. If you reject any doctrinal teachings of the RCC, you are rejecting a teaching of Jesus Christ; and by rejecting a teaching of Jesus Christ, you are rejecting Jesus.

During the days that Jesus walked the earth, when a person rejected one of his teachings, they left him. We see this take place in John, chapter 6 (near the end), when Jesus told his followers that they would have to eat His flesh and drink His blood. Most of his followers rejected this teaching of Jesus. The Bible says that due to this “hard teaching”, they left him, “and walked no more with Him” (vs. 68).

Today when people reject a teachings of Jesus, they think they remain His followers. They don’t realize that by rejecting His teachings (which are found in the RCC), they are thereby rejecting Him. They think they are a follower of Jesus when in reality they are no better than a heathen or publican, which is why Jesus said “if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican” (Mt 18:17).

There are many practices, called truths or traditions, that frankly distract from the preeminence of Jesus. This thread is about what Jesus said, Believe!

Do you believe? Let’s find out. Jesus also said “if thou wil enter into life, keep the commandments” (Mt 19:17). Do you believe that to enter into life we must keep the commandments? If not, you do not believe in Jesus.

Jesus also said we must eat His flesh and drink His blood (John 6:51-58. If you don’t accept that teaching, then, like the disciples who left Jesus, you “believe not” (vs. 65).

The way you can know if you are a true believer in Jesus is if you accept every single teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. If you reject even one dogmatic teaching, it is certain that you do not truly believe in Jesus - not the real Jesus, but, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormans, you believe in “a false Christ”. If you reject any teaching of the Catholic Church you may think you believe in Jesus, but in reality you do not. And that is why there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church, and why our Lord said to treat those who will not hear the Church as a heathen and publican.

 

[Coder]

Do you believe? Let’s find out. Jesus also said “if thou wil enter into life, keep the commandments” (Mt 19:17). Do you believe that to enter into life we must keep the commandments? If not, you do not believe in Jesus.

Yes, if we keep the commandments let us remember that we only do so with the help of the Holy Spirit as we are unable to fulfill the law of love without His help.

So, therefore to not believe is to reject God’s help. Jesus even helped the disciples to believe. He did not “condemn” Thomas, rather He helped him to believe even allowing him to place his hand in His risen Body where He was wounded for our sake.

 

[Cristian_B]

Mark 16:15-120 (New International Version)

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

What is this saying? I have some ideas but want your (name removed by moderator)ut.

God, being all-loving, certainly could not just condemn someone to Hell just for not believing in Him. Maybe it is referring to someone who does not believe because they do not want to believe for their own selfish reasons. I would also like to note that it does not say that you will go to Hell if you are not baptized- this could indicate that to believe in some kind of loving God is to “know God” enough- kind of like meeting a new person and knowing how the generally are but you don’t totally know that person.

How was that saying… to who is given much, much is asked from him, and to who less is given, less is asked from him. I don’t know how it was exactly, but I hopw you get my point.

If someone never heard of God in his life because it was impossible for him, then not much was given to him, and not much will be asked from him. Will man be more just from God? That man only by walking and keeping the laws of his heart which god put in there (i.e.: common sense: do not kill, steal, etc.) will have salvation because he did nto find the truth, even though he seeks it. Since not much was given to him, not much sill be asked from him. But on the other hand, if someone finds out the truth and denies and neglects it, then there is no excuse from him. Because to who is given much, much is asked from him. He was given the truth, but he didn’t keep it. So God will ask from us according to what He gave us.

Regarding baptism… baptism is necessary because by baptism we die and we are born again as a new person. The sinner dies and the righteous lives, and only righteous can have eternal life. This is why baptism is important.

 

[NHInsider]

The implication in the Gospel mandate is that the condemned person has heard the Gospel and knowingly rejected it:

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

You-apostles-go and preach the good news to all creation. They will respond in one of two ways: if they believe, they’ll accept baptism and be saved. If they don’t believe, they will be condemned.

Compare John 3:18:

John 3:14-18
And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

We condemn ourselves, if we refuse to accept the gift.

Compare also Matthew’s account of the Great Commission

Matt. 28:18-20
The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

note that even the Apostles were still struggling with doubt - this is NOT about intellectual assent alone, it’s about accepting and obeying.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

Yes, if we keep the commandments let us remember that we only do so with the help of the Holy Spirit as we are unable to fulfill the law of love without His help.

True, but if we do our part, God will always do His. Therefore, if we fall into sin it is always our fault.

So, therefore to not believe is to reject God’s help. Jesus even helped the disciples to believe. He did not “condemn” Thomas, rather He helped him to believe even allowing him to place his hand in His risen Body where He was wounded for our sake.

I’ll explain why I quoted the verse I did to a person I suspected to be a Protestant. First let’s distinguish between a sin contrary to morality, and a sin against faith. A sin contrary to morality proceeds from the will. We commit such a sin when we do what we should not do. A sin against faith is a sin of the intellect (and also the will). We sin against faith when we *refuse to believe *a truth revealed by God.

Now, Protestants claim that all a person must do to be saved is “believe”. They deny that keeping the commandments is necessary for salvaiton. While there are many problems with that error, one of the problems is that a person cannot believe that error, and at the same time believe the clear teaching of Jesus, who said “if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”. Therefore, if a person claims that all we must do to be saved is “believe”, and if they themselves refuse to believe that teaching of Jesus, they thereby fall into the category of an unbelievers - one who has sinned against the faith (by not believing what he should).

So, while keeping the commandments is necessary for salvation (or at least having any sins contrary to the commandments forgiven prior to death), the purpose of my post was to show that claiming a person does not have to keep the commandments is contrary to the faith, and therefore makes a person an unbeliever. That is why I asked the person who said all we must to is believe, if he himself believed that teaching of Jesus.