Mark 8:14-21. Help, please! :)

[Wm777]

Mark, CHAPTER 8 | USCCB

Almost everything about Mark 8:14-21 makes sense to me, except for one phrase, which I would like some help interpreting.

Mark 8:14-21 is preceded by “The Feeding of Four Thousand” from just a few scraps. The passage ends with “Do you still not understand?” The interim dialogue between Jesus and the Apostles is the result of a misinterpretation the Apostles made when Jesus said “Beware the leaven of the pharisees and Herod.”

The apostles forgot to bring some bread for the trip back across the sea. Jesus make the comment about the Pharisees. They conclude it was due to a lack of bread. Jesus then corrects them.

Jesus’ response to their conclusion sounds a bit frustrated. It’s pretty understandable. He just miraculously fed 4000 people from scraps, so why should they be concerned about bread? His reference to the “Leaven of the Pharisees” was more likely in reference to Meriba and Massah when Israel argued with God over eating manna.

But, since these comments are being directed at the Apostles and not the Pharisees, why would He say, “Are your hearts hardened?”

Their initial question and their conclusion at Christ’s response seemed “basic” enough - perhaps like they were using common, “human” sense; or, they were somehow not really paying attention to Jesus, as if He wouldn’t feed them again - as if perhaps the miracle of feeding four thousand had been a one time event. But - since the Apostles are on Jesus’ side - to for Christ to suggest they had grown “hard-hearted” seems to be going from an admonishment toward a rebuke.

I guess, the part I don’t understand is - what “hard hearted” means in this instance. How is it, when God reveals something so miraculous, and the Apostles are following Him, or are at least trying to - how is it they could have grown hard-hearted by having witnessed the miracle of the feeding of the four-thousand? Again, I can understand they made a mistake, but why would he say it made the Apostoles “hard-hearted”?

BTW, this passage isn’t the only time God’s revelation makes people hard-hearted; it happens a lot that the words and signs make people hard-hearted. But what goes wrong when that occurs?

I hope my question makes sense.

God Bless,

Wm

 

[BrunoMaria]

But, since these comments are being directed at the Apostles and not the Pharisees, why would He say, “Are your hearts hardened?”

… I guess, the part I don’t understand is - what “hard hearted” … why would he say it made the Apostoles “hard-hearted”?
… this passage isn’t the only time God’s revelation makes people hard-hearted; it happens a lot that the words and signs make people hard-hearted. But what goes wrong when that occurs?

Well, God (Jesus) was quite upset about their superficial way of thinking, seeing the outwardly appearing primarily, instead what’s behind it all in wider ways of thinking.

From not having the forgotten bread, Jesus draw the bow from the good bread of those who are God near, to the non-good one of the Herodians and Pharisees.

This goes for us too.
How very often do we fall for the world’s temptations. Such as the „evolution-only“ theory and a thousand others.
And how often do we see the superficially first idea and oversee the things and ideas behind, which all have to do with God.

Since God created all, all has to do with God.
Finally God asks all of us: “Do you still not understand?”
Our misunderstanding is in Marks Gospel in many verses exposed, and we really must read these verses and doubts ourselves, if we too don’t understand as Christ’s disciples did. -

See in Mark’s Gospel 6:52; 7:18; 8:5, 14-21, 27, 33; 9:5, 10, 33; 10:28, 34, 45; 14:19, 29, 50, and many others in all four Gospels.
Or take Mark 14:24. There Christ does not say for all, but for many, which up to this day remains misunderstood.

Also in the words of the Prophets like Isaiah when he announced the whole salvation Christ did - 700 years before it all took place - hardly one understood a thing. Let’s also add „many up to this day“.
A disgrace to heaven.

Actually the disciples are we - the world-wide parish of Christians. And we believers very often don’t understand. I spontaneously then think of the terribly silly questions of did Holy Mary have further Children, wich is so often put.

No - of course she did not have any further Child. For how on earth AND HEAVEN could the woman that God chose to give birth to His begotten Son, ever even think of having further Children.
The biblical „there are Your brothers“ or „His brothers and sisters“ are completely misunderstood, for to Jesus as He emphasized, ALL believers are His brothers and sisters.

Last night I in disgust switched off the TV, when a entertainer said „Mary’s child obviously fell from heaven……….“ and the audience applauded laughing!
Every single one who did laugh and applauded there, will be terribly disgusted at himself, when after his death he realizes which hell’s „joke“ he applauded for!

Yours
Bruno

 

[Mintaka]

– I used to wonder about that, too.

But at Passover time, it is extremely standard for Jews, to spend a lot of time looking all around the house, to find and get rid of leavened items. And so it is also very standard for Jews at this time to compare leaven/yeast to sins, or faults, or bad attitudes – you have to hunt out your sins and faults, and get them out of you.

So of course Jesus was frustrated. Sometimes He said weird things that had to be explained, or told complicated stories with all sorts of symbolism. But in this case, He wasn’t saying anything that any other rabbi would not have said – and His apostles still didn’t get it!

– So in Mark, we see Him talking about “the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” We get the same story in Matthew 16, where Jesus calls it “the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” In Luke 12, we get “the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.”

The story in Mark and Matthew seems to be about the same event, because the apostles remembered it happening when they had forgotten to bring along any bread. Luke seems to be talking about a slightly later event, when Jesus openly explained what he was talking about.

– The general idea seems to be that you need to follow God’s teachings, not human interpretations driven by hypocrisy and thus by foolish pride. Foolish pride “puffs up” a person, as Paul liked to point out, much like yeast and leavening agents make bread rise and “puff up.” And since yeast that gets into bread dough will be mixed into the whole loaf, a bad teaching from the Pharisees or the Sadducees or Herod could ruin your whole soul.

When the Pharisees and others were teaching things correctly, Jesus told His followers that they were sitting on the throne of Moses, teaching with Moses’ authority; so whatever the Pharisees did that was wrong could be ignored, in favor of paying attention to what they taught that was right.

But sometimes the Pharisees and the others were mixing their own “leaven” into those teachings, and that was what the Apostles had to beware.

 

[BrunoMaria]

Oh, here I got to strongly object. Jesus NEVER said any weird things He or anyone had really to explain before it was understandable. OK, His disciples asked Him why He spoke in metaphors.
That’s simply, because God is NOT going to explain Himself more than God anyhow did from Genesis up to Jesus His begotten Son and hence is God in God Himself, and so gave us the final and last exclusive explanations of divine things - up to the present Church’s teaching.
For if God would, then belief would be redundant, as we’d know all anyhow and had nothing to ponder about. Ponder, because real belief must be connected to pondering about God. He who really does in belief, is given answers.

So, when Christ’s disciples asked Him this silly question, in Mt 13,11 Christ answered:
You have been given the opportunity to know the the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but they have not. For whoever has, will be given more and will have an abundance. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. For this reason I speak to them in parables: Although they see they do not see, and although they hear they do not hear nor do they understand.

Here as the Bible tells us, Jesus referred to Isaiah who announced God’s word as such:

„You will listen carefully yet will never understand,
you will look closely yet will never comprehend.
For the heart of this people has become dull; they are hard of hearing,
and they have shut their eyes, so that they would not see with their eyes
nor hear with their ears and understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.“

We find this word Christ cited, in Isaiah 6:10.

In Is 11, Isaiah refers on Jesse, the father of David - in who’s line Jesus was according to the Bible. Though there is of course no real „bloodline“ of Jesus, as He is God in God, light from light, true God from true God.


And Christ went on:

“But your eyes are blessed because they see, and your ears because they hear. Truly; many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

This refers to Jesus Himself and the blessed who saw Him in flesh and even after His resurrection again.

It’s us and today’s world, that longs to see what they saw but in our life-time won’t see it, and to hear what they heard but will not hear it, but have to relay on the Bible.

Yours

Bruno

 

[Wm777]

Thank you both…

The sense I get by the phrase “the leaven of the Pharisees” is either a metaphor, or perhaps an actual product of sorts.

It’s said, “a little yeast leavens the dough”, so a leavened state must be like a “puffed up” state, as yeast does to dough. In a modern, legal sense, the term “puffery” is used to describe something like a big ego. Marketers use puffery all the time to make things look like something more than they are. So maybe Jesus admonishment meant to beware that the Pharisees were basically just blowing a lot of puffed-up, hot air. We hear the term “puffed up with pride” used with respect to them from time to time.

One interesting point about Mark 8 (in general) is - in Mark 8:1-10, we read about the “Feeding of Four Thousand”; but, then, Mark 8:11-13 speaks about “The Demand for a Sign”. And, then, we hear about “The Leaven of the Pharisees” in Mark 8:14-21.

Mark 8:11-13 may seem like a strange juxtaposition, but it probably explains “The Leaven of the Pharisees”.

The oddity of Mark 8:11-13 is, Jesus had just fed 4000 people from a few scraps, which should seem like a pretty good “sign” in and of itself. This was witnessed by a lot of people. So whatever the Pharisees had to complain about seems absurd, i.e. a puffed up objection.

Yet the Pharisees were often at odds with Jesus - usually trying to lure him into traps and verbal arguments, and Mark 8:11-13 only seems to be another example of their contention with Jesus.

I get the feeling Christ simply didn’t want the Apostles to get lured into a pointless verbal debate, since they had already witnessed a sign firsthand when He fed the 4,000. To demand anything further - would simply have been begging the question, not accepting what had already been shown and given to them.

I guess, it would “harden one’s heart” to keep demanding of God like that… On human level, one would be refusing to acknowledge sufficient grace - only to run one’s self in circles, for one’s spirit would only be playing into doubt, as such arguments (by nature) couldn’t recognize fulfillment - even if one’s spirit saw it with one’s own eyes.

 

[poche]

The apostles were slow learners.

 

[BrunoMaria]

To demand anything further - would simply have been begging the question, not accepting the answer

Right. So why then do we keep asking for signs and proofs such as Međugorje and everlasting questions about the validity of the Shroud, the Robe or certain appearances of Saints - even though Jesus said in Mt 12,39: An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it…!

I guess, it would harden one’s heart to keep demanding of God like that…

He who does, is not really a believer. Yes, hell does all to wipe off belief, like wiping off the blackboard. Belief in „Evolution-only“ does the rest. Then there must be evidences. Though there are masses of evidences - we don’t see them. We don’t see that God is in all there is, because God created the world. But he who asks for evidence, doesn’t believe. Belief though is precondition to see God one day in all eternity.

 

[Gorgias]

His reference to the “Leaven of the Pharisees” was more likely in reference to Meriba and Massah when Israel argued with God over eating manna.

That’s not how it strikes me. Jesus performed the sign of the feeding of the 4000. He immediately goes to Dalmanutha, and the Pharisees are waiting for Him, and they challenge Him for a sign. But… He just had performed a sign! So, He leaves. The first comment we hear from his mouth is “beware the leaven of the Pharisees” which, it seems, refers to this incident that just occurred. But, since they hadn’t brought along bread, the apostles think He’s talking about eating on the boat.

But, since these comments are being directed at the Apostles and not the Pharisees, why would He say, “Are your hearts hardened?”

Because they’re not the Pharisees – they believe in Him, they’ve heard His teaching and seen His miracles. And still, they’re not seeing or understanding Him.

BTW, this passage isn’t the only time God’s revelation makes people hard-hearted; it happens a lot that the words and signs make people hard-hearted.

I don’t think they’re hard-hearted. It’s a bit of a rhetorical question, not unlike the situation when your child does something you told him not to do, and you respond, “didn’t you hear me tell you not to do that? Are you hard of hearing?” You’re not saying that he’s really ‘hard of hearing’ – you’re expressing your disbelief that he’d heard but wasn’t responding to your command.

It’s said, “a little yeast leavens the dough”, so a leavened state must be like a “puffed up” state, as yeast does to dough.

It’s less that they are “puffed up”, and more that leaven “infects” the entire loaf. “Beware the leaven”, then, is talking about the fact that a little leaven makes the whole loaf rise.

Scripture scholars debate the meaning of the theme of the apostles’ lack of understanding. Often, they conclude that it’s present in the Gospels in order to point out that Jesus cannot be fully understood outside of an experience of His passion, death, and resurrection.

 

[Wm777]

@Gorgias: I like what you said. You make a lot of interesting (and good) points. I hadn’t thought of it as a rhetorical question, but there is still plenty to consider.

Please know, I’ll pose some objections, but it isn’t my intention to be argumentative. Over the internet, it can be difficult to hear the sincerity in a person’s voice; and, there is no broken spell-check bot for speaking in such a manner; so I’ll try to phrase further questions apologetically. I stated a lot in my initial question. So, if I was wrong, there would be just as much to reconsider.

That said, I agree it doesn’t appear the Apostles were hard-hearted, like the Pharisees; but it’s probably important to remember they were still learning.

But, if one looks at Mark 6:52 - just after the Feeding of 5000, in the passage concluding The Walking on the Water, it says (of the Apostles): “They hadn’t understood the significance of the loaves. On the contrary, their hearts were hardened.”

These are both passages from Mark. Further, in Mark - there’s are parallels between the end of Mark 6 and all of Mark 8. A Miraculous Feeding in a desert setting; a scene in a boat (where the “hardness of heart” is revealed); and, then, a healing at the end.

The statement at Mark 6:52 is clearly not a rhetorical question. It would be more plausible to interpret the statement in Mark 8 as a rhetorical question if each statement had been made by a different author, but the same author wrote this very short Gospel, and the translator’s used the same term, “hard hearted” in each passage, and in respect to both Pharisees and Apostles.

In addition to the fact that the Apostles were learning, another major difference between the Apostles and the Pharisees is - Jesus’ relationship with the Apostles certainly was much better than the one He had with the Pharisees.

This is a difficult passage, I think, for all of us to accept and understand. We prefer to liken ourselves to the Apostles; and, if not “we”, then I’ll assume responsibility for it and say “I”. And, yet, when I sometimes think I know something about Jesus, it turns out I could probably be doing a whole lot more to have faith in Him.

If one reads further in Mark, the problem Jesus is pointing to gets so bad Jesus has to tell Peter “Get behind me Satan!” So, I think, if one really wants to understand this “hardness of heart” (in order to overcome it) - one has to ask onesself… what that means, and where one is going wrong?

It’s easy to see in the Pharisees. But - with respect to the Apostles - why couldn’t Peter walk on the water? And, why did it escalate to Peter being called “Satan”? Why was it - when the Apostles saw the miracle of the loaves - their hearts were nevertheless hardened?

If an explanation isn’t possible, then perhaps some sort of other passages on how to handle hardness of heart would be good to read? I’m open to ideas.

Pax et bonum.

wm

 

[Wm777]

So am I…

 

[Gorgias]

If an explanation isn’t possible, then perhaps some sort of other passages on how to handle hardness of heart would be good to read? I’m open to ideas.

I think the reference to ‘hardness of heart’ is really speaking to the problem of the “misunderstanding of the apostles”. If you’re interested, I’m sure you’ll find lots of discussion of this dynamic in the Gospels, on the part of Scripture scholars.

 

[Zach]

Jesus says “hardness of heart” in Mark 10 and Matthew 19 in the divorce discourse with the Pharisees. There hardness of heart implies sin and disobedience. Because the Israelites hearts were hardened by sin and disobedience, Moses’ law allowed divorce but now in the new age divorce is prohibited thus following God’s original plan.

In the context of Mark 8:14-21 it is doubtful Jesus is using the phrase to imply disobedience and sinfulness. As you say it has more to do with the disciples misunderstanding, especially considering it is smack in between other passages stating the apostles misunderstand.

 

[BrunoMaria]

‘hardness of heart’ is really speaking to the problem of the “misunderstanding of the apostles”.

Objection you honor.

The Apostles loved Jesus. If you love others, you certainly can’t be hard-heartened. Impossible! Loving people who take God’s command LOVE YOUR NEXT literally and do it, are never hard-hearted.

But then, when you are loved by your spouse or your friend, or your child, you are much injured, when this person totally misunderstands what you said, and you are baffled that he really did totally misunderstand. With a stranger you don’t mind so much if he thinks you meant something entirely different from what you said.


Gorgias
March 11

Wm777:
If an explanation isn’t possible, then perhaps some sort of other passages on how to handle hardness of heart would be good to read? I’m open to ideas.

As to hardness of heart, you got in English the words (I looked up in the dictionary): coldhearted - merciless - callous - flinty - remorselessly - coldhearted - stonehearted - marblebreasted.

And in the Bible you find the expression in very many verses. I found it in eg.:

Mt 19:8 - Mark 10:5 - Jas 5:1 - Deut 15 - Prov 11:17 -

And for further explanations,

look here:

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Hardness-Of-Heart

Yours

Bruno

 

[1Lord1Faith]

I think the sentence, “Are your hearts hardened?” is just referring to the fact that Jesus’ manner of speaking, or His point about the leaven, has not been absorbed by the Apostles yet.

I’ve noticed that in some instances the Greek word used in this verse has been rendered as “blinded” in some translations. And looking at what is said by Jesus directly before and after the phrase in question suggests He is referring to something not sinking in for those in the boat with Him.

“Why do you conclude that it is because you have no bread? Do you not yet understand or comprehend? Are your hearts hardened? Do you have eyes and not see, ears and not hear? And do you not remember,

 

[Gorgias]

Objection you honor.

The Apostles loved Jesus. If you love others, you certainly can’t be hard-heartened.

Yet, it’s a common Scriptural expression. It’s not what a 21st-century Western dictionary says, it’s how the phrase was used back then.

Looking at the comments by @1Lord1Faith, I went back to the Greek. Sure enough, it’s “hardened” and “heart”.

At best, I think, we’re looking at a meaning that says that their hearts were dull – that is, they just weren’t ‘getting it.’ I don’t think that the implication that they were actively trying to avoid getting it is in play here, as it is in other parts of the Bible. They were trying… but just weren’t there yet. (And, if you keep reading the narrative, you’ll find that they don’t ‘get it’ until after Jesus’ resurrection.)

 

[Wm777]

While continuing to contemplate this entire issue - I came across a definition Jesus Himself puts forth…

In Luke 12:1-3, Jesus says, “Beware the leaven - that is, the hypocrisy - of the Pharisees.”

It doesn’t exactly define hard-heartedness, but it helps to define the context in which Christ is speaking of hard-heartedness.

Since the leaven of the Pharisees is what Christ is admonishing the apostles against in the passages from Mark. It’s clear Jesus is concerned they could either become hypocritical, or somehow fall into a sinful state themselves (by falling prey to it; as in perhaps a provoked, yet false and useless argument)…

I still dont see any evidence, either definitive or exemplary, the apostles had necessarily done anything wrong or hard-hearted. My only conclusion thus far would be the tensions between the apostles, the crowd following Jesus, and the Pharisees were heating up, and Jesus was probably a priori trying to protect everyone (including the apostles) before any sin had actually transpired…

If, then, we hear Christ chastizing the Pharisees correctively… We also likewise hear Him admonishing the apostles not to lose their cool with the Pharisees either… In other words, it may well have been the Apostles loved Jesus, but didnt completely understand him - in fact, they wouldn’t come to fully understand him until Pentecost … and yet their incomplete understanding made the Apostles still vulnerable to falling into a negative social discourse with them… That’s the most merciful thing I can fathom so far…

Christ would demonstrate the same faith and commitment to this type of policy of love of enemies, patience with sinners, mercy, etc., even unto being crucified by those same people who were persecuting them…

Around Mark 8 - the Apostles wouldn’t have known how far things would go, so that’s why Jesus was probably warning them to stay focused on Him… the Bread of Life, not what they were more likely predisposed to understand, if only by habit or human reasoning…

 

[De_Maria]

Mark, CHAPTER 8 | USCCB

Almost everything about Mark 8:14-21 makes sense to me, except for one phrase, which I would like some help interpreting.

Mark 8:14-21 is preceded by “The Feeding of Four Thousand” from just a few scraps. The passage ends with “Do you still not understand?” The interim dialogue between Jesus and the Apostles is the result of a misinterpretation the Apostles made when Jesus said “Beware the leaven of the pharisees and Herod.”

The apostles forgot to bring some bread for the trip back across the sea. Jesus make the comment about the Pharisees. They conclude it was due to a lack of bread. Jesus then corrects them.

Jesus’ response to their conclusion sounds a bit frustrated. It’s pretty understandable. He just miraculously fed 4000 people from scraps, so why should they be concerned about bread? His reference to the “Leaven of the Pharisees” was more likely in reference to Meriba and Massah when Israel argued with God over eating manna.

No. It was a reference to:

v. 11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.” 13 Then he left them, got back into the boat and crossed to the other side.

Does His response make more sense now?

I hope my question makes sense.

God Bless,

Wm

You too.

 

[MarszDabrowski]

Jesus had a tough time teaching his chosen men. The were considered from the lowest wrung of Jewry of that day. Galilee of the Gentiles. They were ignorant, probably illiterate, poorly catechised Jews of dubious reputations. From the wrong side of the tracks, backwards, slow, brutes…Our Jesus was thought of in this manner, also. He taught them in parables to try to teach them how to think. It would be like going to the inner city of some great metropolis to teach a gang of troubled ghetto youths the very basics of elementary skills. He had to constantly remind them and instruct them in Jewish traditions and customs so he could instruct them in parables that would show them the folly and failure of the Judaism of their day, juxtaposed to The Church he was going to establish. And this church was going to be in the hands of Peter and the Apostles. Those very tough, uneducated brutes who were going to evangelize and transform the entire world. So, of course they upset him, exhausted him, confounded him. He had His Divine Hands full with that group

 

[BrunoMaria]

Jesus’ ……… chosen men …… considered from the lowest wrung … ignorant, probably illiterate …… from the wrong side of the tracks, backwards, slow, brutes

Don’t tell this anybody, for it’s wrong!

Fishermen were most important people in a country that mainly fed on fish and bread. Never „brutes“.

Some of them where highly educated, such the tax collector Matthew. Or take John who was the brother of James, who is called „Brother of Jesus“ - both of course not kindred with Jesus, but seen as highly educated.

……Jesus was thought of in this manner, also.

Jesus Himself as God in God - fully God and fully human was of course definitely not "thought of in this manner“ as he even in the age of 12 taught the Scribes in the Tempel.

He taught them in parables to try to teach them how to think.

Wrong too. Why do you say such things? Jesus the Christ spoke in Parables and Metaphors, so the unworthy did not understand. To the Apostles it was given to understand. See Luke 8:10. Your statements make Jesus just an „itinerant preacher“ instead the Son of God.

Jesus was and is The Son of God and God in God, Light from Light, True God from True God

and His Apostles were anything but as you think like:

…… a gang of troubled ghetto youths the very basics of elementary skills.

not at all

…… uneducated brutes who were going to evangelize and transform the entire world.

They teach us up to this day, because they where even worthy enough to receive and be „filled with“ The Holy Spirit to then be able to speak in all languages about God’s truth.

So, of course they upset him, exhausted him, confounded him. He had His Divine Hands full with that group

I’m afraid you misunderstood here too something in your sight of the matter, look at yourself. I am sure you are well educated as most of us are. But don’t we and all of us very often "upset, exhausted, confound“ God with our sinful behavior?

We do and God has "His Divine Hands full with us“. But still we hardly are a bunch of “… ignorant, probably illiterate …… from the wrong side of the tracks, backwards, slow, brutes”

Yours

Bruno

 

[Wm777]

He had His Divine Hands full with that group

That’s probably why he loved them… John the Baptist had a bit of a voice, too…