Mark Brumley's "How NOT to Share Your Faith"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Church_Militant
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks for joining and contributing to this important thread, Mark! Obviously, your (name removed by moderator)ut is valuable, since you’re the source!!

👍
Some years ago I had a book club discussion in my house with the novelist Michael O’Brien. We had about twenty people present to talk about Michael’s novel Strangers and Sojourners. Introducing the discussion I said that we can criticize or praise, question or critique, what Michael wrote. But we can’t disagree with him over what the author intended!
 
Some years ago I had a book club discussion in my house with the novelist Michael O’Brien. We had about twenty people present to talk about Michael’s novel Strangers and Sojourners. Introducing the discussion I said that we can criticize or praise, question or critique, what Michael wrote. But we can’t disagree with him over what the author intended!
I know a few people who would STILL argue about it!!!

😃
 
Thanks for entering the discussion Mark. The farther I get in your book, the better I like it. I was just thinking today that even people who are not actually “into” apologetics can benefit from it since it covers ways in which we can approach apologetics, but also offers insights into better understanding the Catholic faith on a purely personal level.

I’m really gratified that so many of you are getting this book and jumping into the discussion. Monday I plan to take us into chapter 2.

In thinking about the doctrines that we have so far touched upon, the only answer that I can see is for the apologist to offer “proofs” that explain why we Catholics hold them instead of attempting to rationally prove them as empirical fact.

I personally, may think of the Trinity as an empirical fact because I approach it with faith and having studied the doctrine, am convinced of it, but in explaining and defending it only the reasons why we believe it are relevant because to attempt more is a rational impossibility.
Hence, “biting off more than we can chew.”
I know a few people who would STILL argue about it!!!
Well, yeah, I think we see that from time to time.
 
very interesting subject! maybe it is possible to put a thread with conclusions only and no full comments, so we can be able to have a quick look over them…like one line reply…
 
I agree. Would you say that the inability to prove the truth of, say, the Trinity, from reflection on human experience of the world, is only a matter of not being able to establish it with absolute certainty? Would you, for example, maintain that we can know beyond a reasonable doubt that God is triune? Or by the preponderance of the evidence?
I think you can establish preponderance of evidence if you are willing to include revelation in your evidence. I suspect the error you’re seeing is people who wish to do it the other way around.
 
A few more points that Mark makes on this.

"Arguments may point someone to God’s action and even intellectually dispose him to faith, but the grace of faith is still necessary if someone is to believe.

…this helps explain why intelligent people can listen to well constructed arguments for the faith and still not believe.

When the apologist sets out to defend an article of faith, the best he can hope to accomplish with an unbeliever is to show that the doctrine in question does not contradict reason and that there is evidence that God has revealed the truth in question. The former shows that the doctrine can reasonably be believed, while the latter shows that it *should *be believed.

The challenge for twenty-first-century Catholic apologists is to maintain a balance, to integrate both the objective and the subjective dimensions of apologetics."
 
Sorry for the slack guys. I’ve had a busy couple of days.

From Chapter 2: Reducing the Faith to Arguments and Apologetics to Arguments

…Reductio ad Apologeticum et Argumentum, Reducing Everything to Apologetics and Argument.

“It is absurd to argue men, as to torture them into believing”, said Newman. From this comment, many Christians wrongly conclude that there is no point at all in arguing about religion. “Argument never convinced anyone,” they say.

What cannot be gainsaid, by either one, are facts. It is a fact that people change their minds all the time as a result of arguments.

What we must not do is exaggerate the place of argument-understood here as presenting the rational case for something- in Christian faith or even in apologetics as such.

I agree with Mark that this is a serious temptation for apologists because it’s so easy to slip into.
 
A few more points that Mark makes on this.

"Arguments may point someone to God’s action and even intellectually dispose him to faith, but the grace of faith is still necessary if someone is to believe.

…this helps explain why intelligent people can listen to well constructed arguments for the faith and still not believe.

When the apologist sets out to defend an article of faith, the best he can hope to accomplish with an unbeliever is to show that the doctrine in question does not contradict reason and that there is evidence that God has revealed the truth in question. The former shows that the doctrine can reasonably be believed, while the latter shows that it *should *be believed.

The challenge for twenty-first-century Catholic apologists is to maintain a balance, to integrate both the objective and the subjective dimensions of apologetics."
Well said. Excellent advice.

If I understand rightly, we should:
  1. Establish that the doctrine (or belief or article) can legitimately be believed (i.e., that it is not actually or necessarily contrary to reason); then
  2. With the evidence available (that God has revealed it?), that it actually should be believed.
#2 seems to aim at binding the conscience, so that the individual’s own conscience compels the individual’s will toward acceptance or belief. This is the point I find when people tend to mutter and want to walk (interiorly, run) away, but have a hang-over of internal or interior wrestling notwithstanding, which leads them either to investigate further so as to find evidence to rebuke the doctrine and so assuage their conscience, or otherwise to accept it (for ultimately the same reason), perhaps gathering more evidence to confirm or justify it.

Getting to #2 is rather more difficult than #1 and a lot trickier, as that is when it can become tempting to fall into that overly aggressive style of proselytism that the Church really does not like, and for good reason: it does more harm than good (cf. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9919785&postcount=52). Our Lord seems to have tended to use parables at about this point.

For (an admittedly rough and crude) example,
For #1, someone’s objection might be that science tells us that the earth or universe is very old and, therefore, the bible cannot be true. There can be many ways to answer this objection, but one might be to say that Adam was created with age; likewise, God could have created the universe with an enormous history already included in it. Because to deny the latter is to deny what everyone grants about God by definition (His omnipotence), the objection’s force in reason is lost or weakened (however imperfectly). What the apologist has done, though, is give a rational or plausible explanation for the belief, notwithstanding apparently contrary or contradictory evidence.

At this point, we can say that the Bible’s doctrine (if taken literally) is not necessarily contrary to reason. (Again, this is only an example and meant to be perfect.)

The difficulty now is to move to step #2: What evidence might be given that Adam and Eve really existed as the first humans, and that all mankind is descended from these?

Finally, #1 seems necessary for satisfactorily defending the faith and confirming Catholics in it; whereas, #2 does not seem necessary, except for evangelism. Could an apologetics site stick to neutering objections and not proceed to #2? Should there be a distinction made between #1, which we might call simply defending the faith or apologetics; and #2, which we might classify as evangelism or spreading and promoting the faith?
 
Okay, who all else has gotten this book and is reading it? I know I’m not the only one. 😃
 
As a member of Amazon, I was able to read the Preface, Foreward, Introduction, First Chapter, and Conclusion. To be honest, I had a problem staying focused. I can’t put my finger on it, but it seemed dry and intellectual.

So I didn’t order it. Sorry. This book is a fantastic price here at CAF. Amazon wants $17.50.

I’m going to follow this thread anyway because there will probably be better insights from those of you who share your comments on the book. Thank you for your interest and willingness to host this discussion, CM.
 
Thanks for entering the discussion Mark. The farther I get in your book, the better I like it. I was just thinking today that even people who are not actually “into” apologetics can benefit from it since it covers ways in which we can approach apologetics, but also offers insights into better understanding the Catholic faith on a purely personal level…

This was my experience reading it. I not only saw where I could improve my “apologetics”, but also my normal day-to-day discussions with the people in my life. Casual arguments/discussions between family/friends can be treated in the same manner as proper faith-sharing. We don’t always have to be “right” or “win” a discussion/argument/debate, reagrdless of the subject. We need to be prepared to offer what we know in a manner that is coherent, and we need to be able to acknowledge when we don’t have “the answer” or when to take break from it all to do a little research, etc…

“How Not to Share Your Faith” is a resource that you can apply to everyday life, not just apologetics. 🙂
 
This book might be right up my alley. I am recently back to my Catholic faith after 30 years away and as a practicing alcoholic (sober just short of a year, and six months back to the Church). I am engaged to a protestant and have taken some missteps on the road to her acceptance of my beleifs.
What has given us the most peace and progress is when I remember to practice the last thing I hear at mass, “go forth and preach the Gospel by your life”. When I dont try to quote, or preach, or teach, but just to live as He would have me, I actually see acceptance. It is an acceptance of me, not Catholisism, but it comes with a willingness to attend RCIA and Mass with me regularly. This is huge considering our beginings on the topic of religeon.
I fall way short too often, but God, (and Annie so far) forgives and rewards for the times I do it His way. This book can surely improve my average. I am going to order it.
 
I just ordered it!

I’m really grateful for having found this. Thanks!

I hope to post some thoughts on it here in the following weeks.
 
Further from chapter 2:

“…Reductio ad Apologeticum et Argumentum, Reducing Everything to Apologetics and Argument.” By everything I mean the Christian life as a whole. The error here is looking at all or most spiritual matters “apologetically.” When your only tool is a hammer, as the saying goes, you tend to approach everything as if it were a nail."

I have seen this many times and have even had to resist it in my own thinking. I can even think of at least one very well known media evangelist who is all about nothing but this and it really does nothing good for the Church or the Kingdom of God, but I’ve encountered Catholics who think he’s cool. 🤷
 
Further from chapter 2:

“…Reductio ad Apologeticum et Argumentum, Reducing Everything to Apologetics and Argument.” By everything I mean the Christian life as a whole. The error here is looking at all or most spiritual matters “apologetically.” When your only tool is a hammer, as the saying goes, you tend to approach everything as if it were a nail."

I have seen this many times and have even had to resist it in my own thinking. I can even think of at least one very well known media evangelist who is all about nothing but this and it really does nothing good for the Church or the Kingdom of God, but I’ve encountered Catholics who think he’s cool. 🤷
 
Further from chapter 2:

When your only tool is a hammer, as the saying goes, you tend to approach everything as if it were a nail."

I can even think of at least one very well known media evangelist who is all about nothing but this and it really does nothing good for the Church or the Kingdom of God, but I’ve encountered Catholics who think he’s cool. 🤷
Do we get a trophy for guessing the guy’s name? On second thought, you’ll need a bunch of them, since I think many of us recognize him. I wonder if the hammer ever meets with the rolling stone? All in God’s time.

:yeah_me: + :yeah_me: + :yeah_me: + :yeah_me:

Hammer, meet rolling stone.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQe2Pm_yKsCGnnX1NsYGYU910S6ZmkLKMbRYW3h5mDFkFN-DiJV

There’s always a bigger bully than the bully. 😃
 
This book might be right up my alley. I am recently back to my Catholic faith after 30 years away and as a practicing alcoholic (sober just short of a year, and six months back to the Church). I am engaged to a protestant and have taken some missteps on the road to her acceptance of my beleifs.
What has given us the most peace and progress is when I remember to practice the last thing I hear at mass, “go forth and preach the Gospel by your life”. When I dont try to quote, or preach, or teach, but just to live as He would have me, I actually see acceptance. It is an acceptance of me, not Catholisism, but it comes with a willingness to attend RCIA and Mass with me regularly. This is huge considering our beginings on the topic of religeon.
I fall way short too often, but God, (and Annie so far) forgives and rewards for the times I do it His way. This book can surely improve my average. I am going to order it.
I have found this to be true as well. I can evangelize a lot better by example than I can with words alone.
 
I’m disappointed that the people who said they bought the book did not return to share their insights. I was looking forward to it. 😦 Quite often, the people who share their thoughts and personal experiences with apologetics are more helpful than they realize.
 
Okay, on to chapter 3.

Confusing the Faith with Our Arguments for It.

"…reducing the faith to our own particular arguments for it, or at least those particular arguments we find useful or persuasive.

Our faith should be made of sturdier stuff than the particular arguments we contrive to defend it. Furthermore, merely because we fail in argument and do not actually demonstrate what we set out to prove does not mean the thing we argued for is false. Yet if we ally our faith too closely with our arguments, the fate of the one will seem to guarantee the fate of the other.

The Special Susceptibility of Converts

So tenaciously do they cling to particular doctrines as their discoveries, that they sometimes think they can teach the church a thing or two about Catholic truth. When their approaches to particular doctrines are not immediately applauded by Church authority, they are tempted to judge even the Magisterium to be less truly Catholic than they are. Zeal for their own arguments supplants the docility proper to a follower of Christ and a member of his Church."
 
So tenaciously do they cling to particular doctrines as their discoveries, that they sometimes think they can teach the church a thing or two about Catholic truth.
Church Militant, as you presented this particular chapter, the timing of it is incredible!
I wonder how many of us recognized that we walked through this during a certain thread earlier this week. :eek: It is a most fitting capstone to underscore a major point of how NOT to share our faith.
Our faith should be made of sturdier stuff than the particular arguments we contrive to defend it.
Amen! Thank you!

Q. Since I don’t have the book, I rely on you folks to fill in the blanks. What should be the response of those on the receiving end of these dogmatic teachers? Ignore them? Refute as best we can? Does our written word ever convict anyone this headstrong of their error?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top