Mark of the beast is 666?

[K_C]

spauline:

Dear K C,

I haven’t sluffed you off, just haven’t had time to respond. I was up until 3 am last night trying to dig up the quotes from ECFs to support the beast/days of creation thing. I’ll get back when I get a chance!

GB,
scott

Aha! A fellow nightowl! I appreciate all your effort, S, but don’t get overtired. It sounds to me as if there are a variety of meanings derived from the Apocalypse and that several are acceptable to the Church, so I doubt that we can really pin down the true meaning. We’ll just have to wait until the Lord decides to return. Hopefully, we will get to meet Him before that and be spared the greatest part of the tribulation. Only wish the same could be true for our children and theirs.

 

[Ghosty]

Just want to point out that Numerology is not the same as using numbers for code. Numerology refers to using numbers for divination, i.e. predicting the future, and the concept that certain numbers have a mystical significance. Using numbers for code is not at all forbidden by the Church, as it’s just another mode of communicating perfectly mundane things. The Church also doesn’t forbid numeric symbolism, such as using the number 4 to represent the Gospels, and the number 3 to represent the Trinity; again that is just a means of conveying mundane information.

The biggest clue that John is speaking of Nero, either directly or as a type, is that old manuscripts vary between using the numbers 666 and 616, and those numbers correspond to the two alternate spellings of Nero’s name in Hebrew. That’s a pretty HUGE coincidence! Given that fact, it’s possible that the earliest versions of the text just had Nero’s name, and it was encoded afterwards according to Hebrew alphanumerics in order to hide the “incriminating” evidence during Nero’s campaign against the Christians (this last bit is just my personal speculation given the oddity of the “coincidence”).

Peace and God bless!

 

[spauline]

K C:

Aha! A fellow nightowl! I appreciate all your effort, S, but don’t get overtired. It sounds to me as if there are a variety of meanings derived from the Apocalypse and that several are acceptable to the Church, so I doubt that we can really pin down the true meaning. We’ll just have to wait until the Lord decides to return. Hopefully, we will get to meet Him before that and be spared the greatest part of the tribulation. Only wish the same could be true for our children and theirs.

Dear KC,

well, yes, I was going to point that out, that there can be several layers of meaning. Yes, definitely that’s true! It need not mean only one thing. That’s why, if you read my original post carefully, I said the beast can be Rome one ONE level, but there can be many levels. Hence, certainly, the pagan Roman empire was certainly one level of meaning applicable to the Church crisis then, and, yet, on other levels, it can be other things (Nero, any antichrist, or even THE Antichrist at the very end of world, or, as I am going to show, the whole *collection *of sinful kingdoms or societies throughout all salvation history)

 

[K_C]

Ghosty:

Just want to point out that Numerology is not the same as using numbers for code. Numerology refers to using numbers for divination, i.e. predicting the future, and the concept that certain numbers have a mystical significance. Using numbers for code is not at all forbidden by the Church, as it’s just another mode of communicating perfectly mundane things. The Church also doesn’t forbid numeric symbolism, such as using the number 4 to represent the Gospels, and the number 3 to represent the Trinity; again that is just a means of conveying mundane information.

(Point well taken, Ghosty! However, aside from divination and prophecy, it is apparent that the Church also does think that certain numbers have “mystical significance” too, wouldn’t you agree? Certainly 3 and 7 seem too. So there does seem to be a little bit of “blurring” between those significances allowed by the Church and those forbidden because of their use in numerology.)

The biggest clue that John is speaking of Nero, either directly or as a type, is that old manuscripts vary between using the numbers 666 and 616, and those numbers correspond to the two alternate spellings of Nero’s name in Hebrew. That’s a pretty HUGE coincidence! Given that fact, it’s possible that the earliest versions of the text just had Nero’s name, and it was encoded afterwards according to Hebrew alphanumerics in order to hide the “incriminating” evidence during Nero’s campaign against the Christians (this last bit is just my personal speculation given the oddity of the “coincidence”).

Peace and God bless!

I must admit that it IS a big coincidence (if it even is a coincidence at all, that is to say). Once again, there seem to be multiple meanings to the symbolisms of the Apocalypse, just as there are in the OT. Your speculation seems logical, too. However, it is a bit hard to believe that any book of the bible would call any individual the antiChrist…by name! Somehow, that idea seems to be contrary to Christian mercy. The Church has never said, definitively, that ANYONE has been condemned to hell…not even Judas or Pilate…so I doubt that Nero would be singled out IN SCRIPTURE as the terrible antiChrist. Besides, I don’t think that any spectacular miracles have been attributed to him and, as we know, antiChrist is said to perform miracles.

Therefore, it iseems far more likely that, like most prophecies in the bible, all allusions to him would be as vague as they now appear to be in the present day renditions of that book of the bible.

 

[Ghosty]

(Point well taken, Ghosty! However, aside from divination and prophecy, it is apparent that the Church also does think that certain numbers have “mystical significance” too, wouldn’t you agree? Certainly 3 and 7 seem too. So there does seem to be a little bit of “blurring” between those significances allowed by the Church and those forbidden because of their use in numerology.)

I think this has more to do with symbolism than it does with mystical significance. For example, 5 often represents the five wounds of Christ, so you’ll see that number of things, such as crosses, incorporated into certain art, but there is no “magic” to the number five. It’s just a symbol no different than a rose for Mary, or carpenter’s tools for St. Joseph. What the Church is against is numeric divination, or trying to glean mystical and spiritual insights (including seeing the future) through using numbers. The movie “Pi” is a great example of this kind of thing, and an interesting watch to boot!

I must admit that it IS a big coincidence (if it even is a coincidence at all, that is to say). Once again, there seem to be multiple meanings to the symbolisms of the Apocalypse, just as there are in the OT. Your speculation seems logical, too. However, it is a bit hard to believe that any book of the bible would call any individual the antiChrist…by name! Somehow, that idea seems to be contrary to Christian mercy. The Church has never said, definitively, that ANYONE has been condemned to hell…not even Judas or Pilate…so I doubt that Nero would be singled out IN SCRIPTURE as the terrible antiChrist. Besides, I don’t think that any spectacular miracles have been attributed to him and, as we know, antiChrist is said to perform miracles.

Therefore, it iseems far more likely that, like most prophecies in the bible, all allusions to him would be as vague as they now appear to be in the present day renditions of that book of the bible.

Such talk would be quite in keeping with Scripture, however. Just look how Nebuchadnezzer is portrayed, or Judas, or Pharoah, or Haman. Such talk doesn’t damn anyone, but it does set up their actions as damnable, and furthermore, extremely destructive.

It’s important to remember that no matter what the state of Nero’s soul, his actions cut to the heart of the Church in a profound way that has scarcely been repeated in history; he had the Apostles Peter and Paul killed, not to mention countless others, and when someone or something burned down a large part of the city of Rome he blamed it on the Christians. He literally sought to wipe out Christianity at the roots, and lived in a time where it was perfectly conceivable that he could have. The survival of the Faith through the reign of Nero is nothing short of a miracle, and I think St. John was writing to let everyone know that bad times were definately on their way, but that God saw them and would be caring for His new people.

Just imagine the relief the Christians who experienced the reign of Nero must have felt in reading about his defeat and the survival of the Church! Rather than looking at the “beast” as a Spiritual condemnation of Nero (though that would be perfectly within the rights of God to reveal to John), think of it as expressing the danger of what was to come and the fact that the Church would survive against seemingly insurmountable odds. It also provides a nice centerpiece for enforcing Christian courage; there will be times when we appear to be near destruction, but God has seen it, and He will preserve us. Few such cases will ever be comparable to Nero’s, or the Roman Empire, in scope and power, however. Think of that portion of Revelations as the Christian’s own “Book of Esther”

Peace and God bless!

 

[spauline]

Dear K C,

I finally have a reply that digs up some ECF support for the “general but specific structure of evil” theory of the beast and days of creation. However, it is so long that I figured I’d just put it on my blog here.

Hope this helps, and God Bless you!

scott

 

[robert_ambrose]

sconea:

Montie…may I also recommend David Currie’s recently published book, Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind,
for a thorough study and teaching on this very topic. It is excellent and you will most definitely get your questions answered. Available at amazon, published by Sophia Institute Press

God bless.

In catholic teaching, The rapture is not recognised

 

[RyanL]

robert ambrose:

In catholic teaching, The rapture is not recognised

You should re-read the title of the book, specifically the part about End Times ERRORS that leave the Bible Behind (which is a play on the name of the rapture series “The Left Behind”).

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[maryj]

Just imagine the relief the Christians who experienced the reign of Nero must have felt in reading about his defeat and the survival of the Church! Rather than looking at the “beast” as a Spiritual condemnation of Nero (though that would be perfectly within the rights of God to reveal to John), think of it as expressing the danger of what was to come and the fact that the Church would survive against seemingly insurmountable odds. It also provides a nice centerpiece for enforcing Christian courage; there will be times when we appear to be near destruction, but God has seen it, and He will preserve us. Few such cases will ever be comparable to Nero’s, or the Roman Empire, in scope and power, however. Think of that portion of Revelations as the Christian’s own “Book of Esther”

I can never seem to get this quote thing down! but I’d like to expand on this thought. Doesn’t john warn us of “all” antichrists to come. " fascinated, the whole world followed after the beast…they also worshiped the beast and said,‘Who can compare with the beast or who can fight against it’" verses 3-4. We have already seen this in contemporary history with the personality cults of Hitler, Mao, Stalin and even Saddam Hussein. Their giant pictures and statues were everywhere in their countries. The outstretched right arms of millions followed by roars of adulation. At one point half the human race was in bondage to this kind of Idolitry. John names this for what it really is- blasphamy. Adoring a human being as a god. Through the lips of billions the beast"opened its mouth to utter blasphamies against God (verse 6) John was talking about Nero, but also prophettically accusing all the other Antichrists that have risen since his time.The Antichrists will be allowed to:“wage war against the holy ones and conquer them”(verse 7). Roman emporers did this in the first century and dictators have done this in our day.But we know that their victories are only temporary. The brave Christians of central and eastern Europe(including JP2!!!) who survived Communist oppresion, are an example of the grace filled tenacity of the “holy ones” Such is the faithful endurance of the holy ones" (verse 10)

 

[kleary]

In Catholic teaching a “Pre-Tribulation Rapture” is not recognized. However “The Rapture” spoken of in Scripture and believed by the Church is the second coming of Christ for the final judgement.

The person you quoted merely is pointing you to a book that talks against this false pre-trib rapture concocted by 18’th century protestants.

Sadly for them, when “The Antichrist” comes and begins to pursecute us all it will be they who turn against Jesus because they were not “raptured” away from the persecution. [2 Peter 3:3] “Where is the sign [the rapture - they believe] of His coming”

(just a thought!)

Ken