Mark on Hand or Forehead

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by TPJCatholic
vern,

Revelation is a writing reflecting a divinely given vision. Much of it applied to the time it was written and much of it applies to a much later era when the world enters the last days.

vern humphrey:

The problem is, most people who seek answers in Revelation forget the first part (the part that applied to the world as it was then) and seek to make it all apply to the present and future.

Remember also, the Church considers many of the things in Revelation to be outside of time – it is actually a heresy to attempt to impose a historical interpretation on those things.

Vern is exactly right. It is only the last two chapters of Revelation that are concerned at all with the “End Times.” So many Catholics these days, as evidenced by this whole converstation, have got caught up in the silly prognosticating of Protestant Dispensationalists that they erroneously try to find “clues” in Revelation and other prophetic books like they are not prophecy, but puzzles, that anyone can figure out. Sorry to come across as harsh and ruin the fun, but I am adamantly opposed to anything that dumbs down and trivializes the Faith.

To get a proper **Catholic ** understanding of Biblical prophecy, I recommend the following resources:

“Introduction to Prophecy,” CD series by Steve Wood
familylifecenter.net/cart/product_detail.cfm?ID=613&user=56193243

“Rapture: The End Times Error That Leaves The Truth Behind,” by David Curie
amazon.com/gp/product/1928832725/104-9523528-4627136?v=glance&n=283155

“The Rapture Trap,” by Paul Thigpen (study guide available)
amazon.com/gp/product/0965922820/104-9523528-4627136?v=glance&n=283155

The Navarre Bible Commentary On The Book of Revelation
amazon.com/gp/product/1851820892/qid=1137435667/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-9523528-4627136?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

“The End: The Book of Revelation,” tape/CD series by Scott Hahn (study guide available)
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=169

“Will Catholics Be Left Behind?” by Carl Olsen
carl-olson.com/wcblb_home.html

 

[petra]

Fidelis:

Vern is exactly right. It is only the last two chapters of Revelation that are concerned at all with the “End Times.” So many Catholics these days, as evidenced by this whole converstation, have got caught up in the silly prognosticating of Protestant Dispensationalists that they erroneously try to find “clues” in Revelation and other prophetic books like they are not prophecy, but puzzles, that anyone can figure out. Sorry to come across as harsh and ruin the fun, but I am adamantly opposed to anything that dumbs down and trivializes the Faith.

I completely agree. To clarify, my orginial question did not deal with end times, but rather aspects of Church history.

Thanks, all, for your (name removed by moderator)ut on the various possiblilities of what the “mark” could have consisted of during Nero’s time. The more I learn about what Christians went through at that time, the more I am in awe of their faith.

 

[Calbreese]

This topic is very important, for Souls that are searching. However, it might be time better spent in prayer. That being said, there is a free website @www.istheBeast.com and a book, “Revelation www. is 666”. The RCC posted the book’s press release on Pope Benedict XVI’s news watch website, 1/4/2006. The original ten page proof, which is contained in the book, was delivered to ArchBishop Foley at the Vatican in late 2004. Within months the Vatican started issuing staged warnings about Internet use. The future Saint John Paul II included a trailer, penned by ArchBishop Foley in his last major document, “Rapid Development”, with a warning. That document was rereleased by our new Holy Father as his first major document.Emails to and from the Vatican are in that book, with fifty pages of supporting graphics. Probably the second most interesting book you will ever pick up. Michael Delphino, 2006 Grand Knight, Knights of Columbus, Council #13299, “Profound achievement, comparable to the discovery of the new world.” Royalties are being donated to Saint Vincent de Paul Mission. Pray hard!

 

[petra]

Calbreese:

This topic is very important, for Souls that are searching. However, it might be time better spent in prayer. That being said, there is a free website @www.istheBeast.com and a book, “Revelation www. is 666”. The RCC posted the book’s press release on Pope Benedict XVI’s news watch website, 1/4/2006. The original ten page proof, which is contained in the book, was delivered to ArchBishop Foley at the Vatican in late 2004. Within months the Vatican started issuing staged warnings about Internet use. The future Saint John Paul II included a trailer, penned by ArchBishop Foley in his last major document, “Rapid Development”, with a warning. That document was rereleased by our new Holy Father as his first major document.Emails to and from the Vatican are in that book, with fifty pages of supporting graphics. Probably the second most interesting book you will ever pick up. Michael Delphino, 2006 Grand Knight, Knights of Columbus, Council #13299, “Profound achievement, comparable to the discovery of the new world.” Royalties are being donated to Saint Vincent de Paul Mission. Pray hard!

My goodness!! What I read on the www.istheBeast.com was completely nonsensical.

I didn’t read any apocalyptic warnings about the World Widw Web in Saint John Paul II’s “The Rapid Development.” In fact, in this document, he states:

“To those working in communication, especially to believers involved in this important field of society, I extend the invitation which, from the beginning of my ministry as Pastor of the Universal Church, I have wished to express to the entire world ‘Do not be afraid!’ Do not be afraid of new technologies! These rank “among the marvelous things” – inter mirifica – which God has placed at our disposal to discover, to use and to make known the truth, also the truth about our dignity and about our destiny as his children, heirs of his eternal Kingdom.”

Hey, check this out…ecclesia.org/truth/beast.html. The part of Revalation that dealt with the Beast and the Mark was foretelling persecution of Christians during the time of Nero.

 

[vern_humphrey]

petra:

Hey, check this out…ecclesia.org/truth/beast.html. The part of Revalation that dealt with the Beast and the Mark was foretelling persecution of Christians during the time of Nero.

At the time John was writing, Nero was already dead (having committed suicide about 35 years earlier) and Domitian was Emperor. John is alluding to a legend, “Nero revividus” which said Nero would come back to life. Domitian and Nero were in many ways alike, including their persecution of Christians.

Of course a bad man who came back to life (especially a suicide) would be a true “antiChrist” – the evil mirror image of Jesus.

 

[petra]

vern humphrey:

At the time John was writing, Nero was already dead (having committed suicide about 35 years earlier) and Domitian was Emperor. John is alluding to a legend, “Nero revividus” which said Nero would come back to life. Domitian and Nero were in many ways alike, including their persecution of Christians.

Of course a bad man who came back to life (especially a suicide) would be a true “antiChrist” – the evil mirror image of Jesus.

That’s interesting. So do you think that the AntiChrist was Domitian or another person from history? Or do you think this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled?

 

[vern_humphrey]

petra:

That’s interesting. So do you think that the AntiChrist was Domitian or another person from history? Or do you think this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled?

I think the Nero-Domitian link is clear. I think the Nero Revividus legend, and the way John uses it makes that a possibility.

I really don’t consider Revelation a weather prediction or a puzzle that when solved will reveal the future – I think that which discusses end times is out of history, not to be understood in a worldly sense.

 

[petra]

I just saw this today. A computer chip inserted into the hand is what Protestant eschatology says is “the mark.” Should we be afraid of this?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

petra:

I just saw this today. A computer chip inserted into the hand is what Protestant eschatology says is “the mark.” Should we be afraid of this?

Computer chips are also inserted into people’s eyes to help them see. Pacemakers help people who have suffered heart attacks. Not really sure why we should inherently be afraid of a specific technology just because of some protestant’s interpretation of Revelation. I, however, won’t be getting one just because it could cause infection. Infection is probably the only thing you should be afraid of.

 

[asquared]

well if I were a bible literalist who believed in sola scriptura I would have to reject the computer chip hypothesis, since computers and microchips are nowhere mentioned in the bible explicitly.

 

[vern_humphrey]

petra:

I just saw this today. A computer chip inserted into the hand is what Protestant eschatology says is “the mark.” Should we be afraid of this?

As long as you have the option of refusing, no.

As I have pointed out, the attempt to interpret those things which are outside of history as being historical predictions violates Catholic doctrine. The “marks” clearly refer to marks and practices in John’s lifetime.

 

[Fidelis]

petra:

I just saw this today. A computer chip inserted into the hand is what Protestant eschatology says is “the mark.” Should we be afraid of this?

Only if you’re foolish enough to fall into the whole juvenile Dispensationalist preoccupation of trying to find modern day fulfilments of the Book of Revelation. One hundred years ago, they didn’t have computer chips, but they interpreted it as something contemporary to them. One hundred years from now, it’ll be something else. The arrogance of Dispensationalism and Dispensationalists of all times is they are convinced the Apostle John wrote Revelation just for them. Which means, of course, the book was meaningless for the first 1800 years of Christians. Puh-leeze!

 

[quasimodo]

petra:

I just saw this today. A computer chip inserted into the hand is what Protestant eschatology says is “the mark.” Should we be afraid of this?

More like Wingnut eschatology. Very few protestants buy this junk but the one who do tend to be loud.

 

[GoldenArrow]

Quote:
Originally Posted by petra
I just saw this today. A computer chip inserted into the hand is what Protestant eschatology says is “the mark.” Should we be afraid of this?

As long as you have the option of refusing, no

On another note, if you were FORCED to receive this chip, it would be a whole other ballgame.

I’m presently reading David Currie’s book: RAPTURE: The end-times error that leaves the bible behind. He sets up several “rules” for interpreting prophetic literature. One of them is “History can become prophecy,” which I took to mean one written prophecy can result in more than one event that relates to it. This runs along the vein of “history repeats itself.”

So, if we were to apply rule to the Mark of the Beast prophecy, one could say that the history of Roman slaves being branded on the forehead or hand is a foretaste of the earthly, material fulfillment of that prophecy under the 3.5 year reign of the real Antichrist. (One commonality I’ve run across in Catholic End time interpretation is that the Reign of Antichrist will be 3.5 years as a Satanic mimic of Jesus Christ’s 3.5-year public ministry). Another example of history as prophecy, using this same theme is that the Roman coin of Nero is also a partial fulfillment of the Mark of the Beast prophecy, and so “history becomes prophecy.” The history of the Nero coin then becomes prophecy pointing towards a future time when the Antichrist will require his followers to adore his image–the so-called “Image of the Beast.”.

Of course, the final fullfillment of this prophecy is probably spiritual and material and will reach absolute fulfillment after the Parousia, on the Day of Judgment, when those dead in Christ are resurrected in the form of the immortal Risen Christ, their souls and bodies permanently marked (like sheep) with the marks of Baptism, Confirmation, etc. Those dead in Satan will rise in a non glorified, immortal body, and their souls and bodies will probably be permanently marked with an unholy brand, indicating they are part of Satan’s flock. This brand is the Mark of the Beast. It is a brand indicating you are bound for hell, basically.

An addendum—if you have the marks of Christ, that is Baptism and Confirmation, AND also have the Mark of the Beast, the marks of Christ ADD to your eternal suffering. Those marks of Christ would then add to your greater de-glorification if you are hell-bound.

Now, this is just my own interpretation on all this—a fallible conjecture.

Will this “branding” have a literal earthly equivalent? Will there be an earthly Mark of the Beast so terrible that you damn your soul if you willingly receive it before your body dies? I actually don’t know, but I hope not. We’ll just have to wait and see.

In all likelihood–it’ll be something unexpected.

Good discussion!

 

[spauline]

vern humphrey:

The problem is, most people who seek answers in Revelation forget the first part (the part that applied to the world as it was then) and seek to make it all apply to the present and future.

Remember also, the Church considers many of the things in Revelation to be outside of time – it is actually a heresy to attempt to impose a historical interpretation on those things.

From what i understand, the book is multilayered. Certainly, it has an entire level of meaning that is strictly applicable to the time when it was written. However, that the Book would not at all address any other historical questions, even spiritual ones, does not seem correct to me.

I have read many quotes of Early Fathers who relate the Book to the entirety of salvation history and giving broad meanings, for example, to the beast, namely as a symbol of the sinful resistance to God’s Plan across *the whole spectrum of Salvation History. *Hence, I don’t know where you’re getting your assertion that “it addresses no other historical questions than the Early Church.” Not to mention that several of the authors listed earlier in this thread admit that the Book may address the spiritual history of the Church.

That is not to say, however, that I side with typical Fundamentalists, who see in it specific *political *or *temporal *scenarios of modern times. When I’m talking of prophecy, I mean of spiritual ages of Church or Salvation history, not minor historical nonsense applied to modern times. In other words, I was not aware that the Book not only has no application to nonessential minor history, but even no application to major spiritual developments

 

[spauline]

Pax:

No one seems to take this verse in the same literal fashion that some take the “mark of the beast.” The Church teaches that baptism leaves an indelible mark on our souls. It could be that the verses should be taken to mean literally “marked for life” or “marked for death” in terms of our spiritual life and eternity. The verses in Revelation may not mean actual physical marks placed on the head or the hand.

I hope this helps.

bauerice:

Taken symbolicly the mark on the head is surrendering your will. The mark on the hand is surrendering your service.

I agree with you both, Pax and bauerice, in giving a more spiritual meaning to it. I might even add my own speculative insights.

If you would like to read it, I posted it here on my blog.

Sincerely,
Scott

 

[vern_humphrey]

spauline:

From what i understand, the book is multilayered. Certainly, it has an entire level of meaning that is strictly applicable to the time when it was written. However, that the Book would not at all address any other historical questions, even spiritual ones, does not seem correct to me.

I have read many quotes of Early Fathers who relate the Book to the entirety of salvation history and giving broad meanings, for example, to the beast, namely as a symbol of the sinful resistance to God’s Plan across *the whole spectrum of Salvation History. *Hence, I don’t know where you’re getting your assertion that “it addresses no other historical questions than the Early Church.” Not to mention that several of the authors listed earlier in this thread admit that the Book may address the spiritual history of the Church.

That is not to say, however, that I side with typical Fundamentalists, who see in it specific *political *or *temporal *scenarios of modern times. When I’m talking of prophecy, I mean of spiritual ages of Church or Salvation history, not minor historical nonsense applied to modern times. In other words, I was not aware that the Book not only has no application to nonessential minor history, but even no application to major spiritual developments

It is indeed multi-layered, but “prophesy” doesn’t necessarily mean “historical prediction.” Nor is it clear that when John says he “saw” something that he always means “saw” in the same sense – did he actually see it, did he have a vision, or did he simply use a literary device to convey his message?

 

[Pax]

Scott,

Nice job on the blog. You have a careful and thoughtful way about you.

 

[GoldenArrow]

Scott, Nice job on the blog. You have a careful and thoughtful way about you.

Phew! I agree. You’ve planted a seed in my brain.

 

[Maranajewell]

There have been so many interesting replies on this thread. I have read them all and will take them into consideration for myself, but I can’t help but noticing that that the last book of the Bible seems to be an irony to me in today’s age. Revelation…?!? It isn’t so clear!

But I will trust the Church through whatever happens !