Maronite Church

[utah_rose]

We’re thinking of attending Mass on New Years Eve at a local Maronite Church. What is the Liturgy like and is the Mass very long? We are Latin Rite Catholics.

 

[XXI_4]

The service (Divine Liturgy or Qurbono) should be roughly an hour. It may be a little more or less depending on the celebrant. One Maronite church I visit has a large number of Lebanese immigrants and so they do many of the prayers and the readings in both English and Arabic, so the service there is longer.

Check out this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=987486

And there is more information from the Eparchy (Diocese) of St. Maron: stmaron.org/1qurbono.html#STRUCT

 

[Casilda]

Were you able to attend?

 

[utah_rose]

No! We had car problems. The day was very cold, and unfortunately couldn’t attend Mass either that day or on New Years, but I would like to go there sometime. They have Confessions for a longer time on Saturday than our parish does, and I’ve heard the liturgy is beautiful!

 

[Upgrade25]

Are there any all-Syriac “Traditional” Maronite Masses?

 

[malphono]

Are there any all-Syriac “Traditional” Maronite Masses?

No, at least not public ones.

 

[Upgrade25]

No, at least not public ones.

That’s a shame. They should allow that like they allow the Roman Rite to celebrate Novus Ordo and TLM.

 

[keefabarmorun]

Hi Upgrade25,

The following Maronite Qurbono recording is about 90% in Syriac, from 2006:

youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE13D60C70BBFEC9B

In Christ,
keefa bar morun

 

[keefabarmorun]

Also, here’s a recording of the Syriac Maronite morning office for Saint Anthony the Great, it’s also about 90% in Syriac:

youtube.com/watch?v=0KwyA_Hpigs

 

[Augustine]

Are there any all-Syriac “Traditional” Maronite Masses?

Methinks that all the Syrian Churches have used the liturgy of St. James since their origins. And, if by traditional you mean original, you probably would have to go to one of the Syrian Orthodox Churches, like the Malabar or Chaldean, Orthodox or not, or the Assyrian Churches, though not necessarily in Syriac.

I’ve been to a Malankara Catholic liturgy and it’s very similar to the Maronite liturgy. Due to my presence, they were kind enough to use English most of the time, but some chants were in Malayalan and the words of consecration, in Aramaic as well. I thought that the beauty of the liturgy of St. James was evident in it too.

Pax Christi

 

[keefabarmorun]

Hi Augustine,

Methinks that all the Syrian Churches have used the liturgy of St. James since their origins. And, if by traditional you mean original, you probably would have to go to one of the Syrian Orthodox Churches, like the Malabar or Chaldean, Orthodox or not, or the Assyrian Churches, though not necessarily in Syriac.

Pax Christi

In the case of the Syriac Maronite Church, the Assyrian Church of the East (ACoE), and the Chaldean Church (which split from the ACoE), from the 1st century we have used the Anaphora which was brought over from Jerusalem in Aramaic by the Apostles. In Antioch it was brought over by Saint Peter the head of the Apostles, for this reason it’s called the Anaphora of Saint Peter III. Outside the Roman empire, in what is today Iraq, it was brought over by Saints Mari and Adai, for this reason it’s called the Anaphora of Saints Mari and Adai. Both the Anaphora of Saint Peter III and the Anaphora of Saints Mari and Adai are of the same origin, and are structurally different than the Anaphora of Saint James.

The Syriac Maronites, up to the time of the 15th century used primarily the Anaphora of Saint Peter III – I will avoid the Latinization discussion at this point, as to why it fell into disuse and how it came back in 2008. The ACoE and Chaldean still primarily use the Anaphora of Saints Mari and Adai.

The majority of the traditional Syriac Maronite rites are structurally based on the Anaphora of Saint Peter III.

The other Anaphoras used by the Syriac Maronites are structurally based on that of Saint James. And prior to the 15th century, were primarily used on specific dates.

In Christ,
keefa bar morun

 

[malphono]

That’s a shame. They should allow that like they allow the Roman Rite to celebrate Novus Ordo and TLM.

One could only hope. But alas, it doesn’t quite work that way.

 

[Peter_J]

Are there any all-Syriac “Traditional” Maronite Masses?

One could only hope. But alas, it doesn’t quite work that way.

Do many Maronites complain about not having all-Syriac qurbana (sp?)? I haven’t heard such.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Augustine,

In the case of the Syriac Maronite Church, the Assyrian Church of the East (ACoE), and the Chaldean Church (which split from the ACoE),

Not trying to be argumentative, but that is debatable.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Do many Maronites complain about not having all-Syriac qurbana (sp?)? I haven’t heard such.

It’s kind of a catch-22 isn’t it? No one can clamor for something they’ve rarely if ever seen/heard. The same problem manifested itself in the Syro-Malabar Church, so few had ever seen a non-latinized Liturgy or prayed Syro-Malabar devotions, that no one would even know how to ask for one, let alone find a priest that knows (or is interested). I fear the Syro-Malankara may succumb to the same struggle soon due to the lack of interest in handing down anything except the basic Divine Liturgy - at least the Maronite and Syro-Malabar Churces are large enough to have some quarters, even if tiny that can potential influence things in the other direction; the non-Orthodox Malankara are small enough to be overrun and these Traditions forgotten for the sake of falsely “being really Catholic” (which means mimicking Novus Ordo non-Traditional Latins and Charismatics).

 

[malphono]

Do many Maronites complain about not having all-Syriac qurbana (sp?)? I haven’t heard such.

A few of us do. But it’s not a matter strictly of language. I thought you would have gotten that drift by now after all these years.

 

[malphono]

It’s kind of a catch-22 isn’t it? No one can clamor for something they’ve rarely if ever seen/heard. …

at least the Maronite and Syro-Malabar Churces are large enough to have some quarters, even if tiny that can potential influence things in the other direction;

Of course I can’t speak for the Syro-Malabars, but for the Maronites those who “buck the trend” are but a small group. I suppose there is some remote potential of influence but even that’s doubtful. We have been marginalized to such a degree by the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizers that it appears all hope is lost.

the non-Orthodox Malankara are small enough to be overrun and these Traditions forgotten for the sake of falsely “being really Catholic” (which means mimicking Novus Ordo non-Traditional Latins and Charismatics).

Since the whole is small, I think you might have a better chance of being heard and not being over-run by post-conciliar madness.

 

[MorEphrem]

The Syriac Maronites, up to the time of the 15th century used primarily the Anaphora of Saint Peter III

Could you please provide some evidence of that.

Of course I can’t speak for the Syro-Malabars, but for the Maronites those who “buck the trend” are but a small group. I suppose there is some remote potential of influence but even that’s doubtful. We have been marginalized to such a degree by the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizers that it appears all hope is lost.

I’d go even further and say the collective memory of real Maronite tradition has been strangled to the point where even some of the small group of Maronites who desire something greater have no inkling of what that greater is.

Revisionism is the stifling weed of the Maronite Church. Even certain of its bishops make ridiculous ahistorical statements claiming, for instance, the Syriac Orthodox are monophysites (in direct contradiction of both Paul VI and JPII - an example of us once again being more Catholic than the Pope) and, as such, we have no ecclesiological/liturgical relation to them.

 

[keefabarmorun]

shlomo,

Could you please provide some evidence of that.

Below is the introduction to the official 2008 ktobo dqurbono, according to the Antiochan Syriac Maronite Church: (My translation from Arabic into English)

"According to the tradition which is attributed to the Apostles, on the day of the assumption of the Virgin, the Twelve Disciples joined together from all the nations around Mary the Mother of God, and they celebrated the Qurbono according to this Anaphora which they named with several names: the Anaphora of the Apostles, the Anaphora of the Disciples, the Anaphora of Peter the Apostle. Today it’s known as the Anaphora of ‘sharar’ in Syriac, which means: confirm, and it’s the beginning prayer of this Anaphora, and which seals the recitation of the Canon of Faith.

The Maronite Church used 'the Anaphora of Peter the Apostle" until the publication of the Second printed ktobo dqurbono in the year 1716. This means that it was found in the first printed edition in the year 1594, as it had appeared in the majority of all prior Maronite manuscripts and the oldest one. And when we look through these manuscripts, we find remnants with finger grease and candle wax on the edges of their papers, which confirms that this Anaphora was the most used in the Maronite Qurbono.

The Maronite liturgical studies have confirmed that ‘the Anaphora of Peter the Apostle’ was for a long period of time The Anaphora – the form of the order of the Qurbono, on which was effected the construction of two ancient liturgies of our rites in the oldest and in theology, and they are: the Rite of the Consecration of Myron and the Rite of the Consecration of Water; and to this Anaphora there are also great similarities with the standard for constructing the Book of the Service of the Qurbono which was first printed in 1596."

It goes on to cover many of the same details that I had mentioned, in relation to COE and the Chaldean Anaphora, as well as further analyses upon it and its history.

Revisionism is the stifling weed of the Maronite Church. Even certain of its bishops make ridiculous ahistorical statements claiming, for instance, the Syriac Orthodox are monophysites (in direct contradiction of both Paul VI and JPII - an example of us once again being more Catholic than the Pope)

I would be careful about making such wide stroke statements, giving available physical evidence. Also, the statement “an example of us once again being more Catholic than the Pope” is a dangerous one, as we’ve had bad popes in the past. Catholic Tradition is not based solely on what a Pope says, but is based on the faithfully received Apostolic Tradition and the Scriptures, as described for example in the Letters of Saint Paul. This statement is also responsible for a lot of the Latinisation and revisionism under which the Syriac Maronite Church suffered and still suffers, as well as the other Syriac Churches in communion with the Pope.

As with regards to the question of Christological controversies of the past, especially as it relates to the various Syriac Churches. Some can be attributed to issues related to translating specialised Greek words of the councils into Syriac, especially those specialised words which have no equivalence in Aramaic. The definition of some of these specialised words in Greek, even differed from what they meant in Greek prior to the councils.

Also, the Syriac theological understanding of some words translated into Aramaic differed from one community to another.

But by the same token, in the past some bishops and priests of these communities did write forcefully what amounts to Christological heresies. Many of these Churches in time have rejected the writings of these bishops and priests, but at their time they enjoyed wide spread popularity, which resulted in the condemnations.

I’m purposely avoiding naming names, because these devises issues, which for the most part have been resolved, are best kept in the past. A past which saw divisions form within the Aramaic speaking Churches. But we can’t say that all critical issues have been resolved, and for that we pray that the Patriarchs of these Churches continue the work on resolving them and putting an end to our division, so that we maybe one, as Christ has asked.

fush bashlomo,
keefa bar morun

 

[keefabarmorun]

Correction to my above:
“devises issues”

should read as

“divisive issues”