Maronite Liturgy

[malphono]

It was still a trauma, for Rome only approved some of the anaphorae, not all. It has been described as a pruning of the Maronite tradition. There may also have been some changes to the anaphorae which were approved.

As you and the other “regulars” here know (probably all too well ), I’m no fan of latinization, but let’s at least try to keep things in perspective.

The so-called “approval” of anaphorae was basically tied to the project of publishing a Missal. There are 70-some West Syriac anaphorae, not all of which were in general use in the first place, (this is also still true in the SOC) and in the second place there was never an intent to publish all of them (again true in the SOC).

The project was at first in the charge of the Carmelites, who had little (if any) negative criticism, but was ultimately usurped by the Jesuits who (of course) went nit-picking. In any case, the older anaphorae were eventually “cleared” while a few of the later compositions were deemed questionable because of their “Jacobite” origins. Those few that were not “approved” weren’t destroyed, but merely removed from consideration for printing. Over the years since the first printing of the Missal in 1594, some anaphorae were added and others deleted. The more commonly used ones, though, remained.

As I have said several times in the past in various other threads, yes, there were a skant few changes made to the text of those anaphorae that were published. The most obvious thing was the imposition of a common Institution Narrative (based on that in the Roman Canon). (This remains the case, albeit that the text in current use is a different arbitrary composition. It was not taken from any one particular anaphora.)

There was also an attempt at trying to blur the explicit causality of the Epiklesis by changing the order or tense of a verb. (That latter attempt worked in some anaphorae and failed in others.) One other adjustment was that the fraction and consignation were split apart, in order to mimic the Roman practice. Here, though, the prayers themselves were not modified: it was simply a matter of their placement plus a few minor rubrics. (This was eventually addressed in 1971 starting with the advent of the ex experimentum texts where the placement was restored. OTOH, the prayers were badly butchered and abbreviated at that point and remain so.)

 

[agent_grey]

I personally am not so interested in the ritual as I am the priesthood. Although I would prefer an intact Rite that has centuries of authentic use it is not a deal breaker for me. So long as the teachings of the liturgy are correct I realy could care less about the rest.

My big Question.

Has V2 had any impact on the Maronite Priesthood and the Rites of Ordination. Are maronite priests and bishops ordained by maronite lines or do they rely on Novus Ordo lines? Anybody know?

Also does a proper traditional Maronite liturgy mention the Pope by name?

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Has V2 had any impact on the Maronite Priesthood and the Rites of Ordination. Are maronite priests and bishops ordained by maronite lines or do they rely on Novus Ordo lines? Anybody know?\

**And are you assuming that the Rites of Holy Orders promulgated in the Latin Church are somehow now defective or invalid?

There is only ONE line of apostolic succession, ultimately, and it comes from Christ Himself.

Only the independent churches (including sede vacantists) talk about “lines”.**

 

[malphono]

bpbasilphx’s comment was quite to the point, and I have little to add except to say that I’m getting the distinct impression that this is some sort of fishing expedition. I’m not sure what to make of it. Perhaps best for me to keep mum for the time being.

 

[Formosus]

I personally am not so interested in the ritual as I am the priesthood. Although I would prefer an intact Rite that has centuries of authentic use it is not a deal breaker for me. So long as the teachings of the liturgy are correct I realy could care less about the rest.

My big Question.

Has V2 had any impact on the Maronite Priesthood and the Rites of Ordination. Are maronite priests and bishops ordained by maronite lines or do they rely on Novus Ordo lines? Anybody know?

Also does a proper traditional Maronite liturgy mention the Pope by name?

These should not be any issue at all. The Maronite Liturgy , as all liturgies being celebrated by a cleric of the Catholic Church, mentions the current Pope by name when commemorating him. This post sounds like its leaning towards sedevecantism…

 

[agent_grey]

bpbasilphx’s comment was quite to the point, and I have little to add except to say that I’m getting the distinct impression that this is some sort of fishing expedition. I’m not sure what to make of it. Perhaps best for me to keep mum for the time being.

Yes this is a fishing expedition. I am hungry!

 

[agent_grey]

Sorry if I offended anyone. I thought someone might be able to help me in my search.

I will say what I always say. If you know Christ by communion keep going. If you recieve communion and don’t know christ by communion don’t go back.

 

[Yasouna]

I am a Maronite born and raised in Australia who is currently a seminarinan in Lebanon studing for the married priesthood. I have spend the last three years diving deep into Liturgical studies of Latin (both Tridentine & Novous Ordo), Maronite (both pre & prior 1992 reforms) & the Syrian Orthodox Qourbono.

I have have a book that I recommend you get your hands on while it is still available called ‘The Eucharistic liturgies of the Eastern churches By Nikolaus Liesel’ it was printed in 1963 and is an interesting read as it has step by step pictures and explination for all eastern rite Catholic liturgies. I have taken the time to re type and scan all the photos of the Maronite Liturgy and have presented it to three Latin liturgical experts in Australia (all of which a fluent with the Tridentine which has stayed the same for some 1600 years) all of them made note of the similaritys and diferents between the two liturgies.
When comparing the old maronite liturgy with the new I found that alot of the old practices that were removed from the new rite were in no way Latinization but rather are either unique to the Maronite Church (such as the preperation of the gifts) or were well in common with the Syriac Orthodox (such as the reading of the Gospel in the middle of the santury).

In regards to altars and architecture when I have a break from the seminary I return to my home village in the north called Bann a small village in the mountains of Wadi Qadissine (Valley of the saints) which is a stones throw from both the famous Saint Anthony monastary at QousHaya and Wadi Qanoubine (the famous refuge of the Maronite Patriacal see in the darker times of our history) but back to the point I have been visiting all the old churches in the area aswell as anywhere else in Lebanon and I have found that 95% of the old churches have the same structure:
-the church faces the east
-there is three arches in the eastern wall (in larger churchs this would have three altars one to each arch but smaller ones which didnt have the room would still build small niches but one altar in the middle
-Tabernacles were in the MIDDLE of the altar and the altar was against the wall (which is actually against latin law where even in the old rite the altar had to be free standing)
-there would always be a picture of the patron saint above the altar
-in the files on my computer i have photos of Syriac Orthodox and Maronite altars and most you cont tell the diferents between them.

I could go on and on I am hoping to write a paper on this topic as i see it is of great importants. I love the liturgy and if we dont study the facts properly the Maronite church is dead. also just remebering I meet one of the four priests who was incharge of the putting together of the new Qurbono and I confronted him with the book and asked about the things that were taken out and he was abit dissmissive showing he had full knowldge of what I showed him but he studied in a Jesuit seminary in france in the late 60’s so all I can do is pray for him.

I feel there is too much to mention in one thread but if must be noted that the Maronite people have been lied to and that most of the reforms were to be more like the French religious who adopted some outlandish customs which are now the norm in most latin churches.

We must give God the best in the liturgy for the words of the Prophet ring too clear:

"The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by the hand of Malachias. I have loved you, saith the Lord: and you have said: Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau brother to Jacob, saith the Lord, and I have loved Jacob, But have hated Esau? and I have made his mountains a wilderness, and given his inheritance to the dragons of the desert. But if Edom shall say: We are destroyed, but we will return and build up what hath been destroyed: thus saith the Lord of hosts: They shall build up, and I will throw down: and they shall be called the borders of wickedness, and the people with whom the Lord is angry for ever. And your eyes shall see, and you shall say: The Lord be magnified upon the border of Israel.

The son honoureth the father, and the servant his master: if then I be a father, where is my honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the Lord of hosts. To you, O priests, that despise my name, and have said: Wherein have we despised thy name? You offer polluted bread upon my altar, and you say: Wherein have we polluted thee? In that you say: The table of the Lord is contemptible. If you offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if you offer the lame and the sick, is it not evil? offer it to thy prince, if he will be pleased with it, or if he will regard thy face, saith the Lord of hosts. And now beseech ye the face of God, that he may have mercy on you, (for by your hand hath this been done,) if by any means he will receive your faces, saith the Lord of hosts. Who is there among you, that will shut the doors, and will kindle the fire on my altar gratis? I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts: and I will not receive a gift of your hand.

For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts. And you have profaned it in that you say: The table of the Lord is defiled: and that which is laid thereupon is contemptible with the fire that devoureth it. And you have said: Behold of our labour, and you puffed it away, saith the Lord of hosts, and you brought in of rapine the lame, and the sick, and brought in an offering: shall I accept it at your hands, saith the Lord? Cursed is the deceitful man that hath in his flock a male, and making a vow offereth in sacrifice that which is feeble to the Lord: for I am a great King, saith the Lord of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the Gentiles." (Mal 1:1-14)

 

[malphono]

I am a Maronite born and raised in Australia who is currently a seminarinan in Lebanon studing for the married priesthood. I have spend the last three years diving deep into Liturgical studies of Latin (both Tridentine & Novous Ordo), Maronite (both pre & prior 1992 reforms) & the Syrian Orthodox Qourbono. …

When comparing the old maronite liturgy with the new I found that alot of the old practices that were removed from the new rite were in no way Latinization but rather are either unique to the Maronite Church (such as the preperation of the gifts) or were well in common with the Syriac Orthodox (such as the reading of the Gospel in the middle of the santury). …

I could go on and on I am hoping to write a paper on this topic as i see it is of great importants. I love the liturgy and if we dont study the facts properly the Maronite church is dead. also just remebering I meet one of the four priests who was incharge of the putting together of the new Qurbono and I confronted him with the book and asked about the things that were taken out and he was abit dissmissive showing he had full knowldge of what I showed him but he studied in a Jesuit seminary in france in the late 60’s so all I can do is pray for him.

I feel there is too much to mention in one thread but if must be noted that the Maronite people have been lied to and that most of the reforms were to be more like the French religious who adopted some outlandish customs which are now the norm in most latin churches.

Yes, indeed. Quite the same as I’ve said in this and previous threads.

One minor point: the Rite of Preparation as it used to be, (what is there now is a bad joke at best), is shared in main with the Syriac OC, as are the (now defunct) vesting prayers, so it’s not exactly unique to the Maronites. OTOH, though, certain of its rubrics were.

In regards to altars and architecture … I have found that 95% of the old churches have the same structure: …
-there is three arches in the eastern wall (in larger churchs this would have three altars one to each arch but smaller ones which didnt have the room would still build small niches but one altar in the middle

Actually, the central arch (or apse) would have originally had the altar curtain, unless there was a canopy (aka ciborium) over the altar, in which case the curtain would have been there. From what I’ve seen, most of the old churches would have been a bit too small for the ciborium. The presence of the “three altars” is clearly the result of the early waive of latinization (see below).

-Tabernacles were in the MIDDLE of the altar and the altar was against the wall (which is actually against latin law where even in the old rite the altar had to be free standing) …

I think there’s a misperception here. In Roman churches other than major cathedrals and basilicas, it was rare for an altar to be truly free-standing. The altar itself was flush to the reredos, but there was normally a pass-through behind the latter. Notice the diagrams for incensation in the Missale Romanum of 1962 and before.

In any case, the same eventually became true among the Maronites, but that is also due to the early wave of latinization. Keep in mind that most of the old churches date starting from the 12th century. In prior times, though, the altar itself was free-standing, and that’s quite clear from the text of certain prayers (most of which have, very sadly, been eliminated by the Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizers with whom you are already familiar) which allude to incensing and processions around the altar. Such would only have been possible if the altar itself were free-standing.

 

[Aramis]

Yasouna:

Tridentine is the adjective origination-indicative form of Trent, as in the council of. The Tridentine liturgy is 439 years old; the currently approved variation is only 47 years old.

Trent codified the liturgy in 1566-1570; it made relatively minor changes, but the Roman Missal can not be said to be unchanged for “1600 years”, especially since the Dominican Missal (codified in 1200) has a prothesis and the Roman Missal of Trent (1570) does not…

Further, there are major changes in the Roman Mass in between 800 and 1560… while the Anaphora itself does not change in 1600 years, many elements did.

Further, examining my mother’s 1956 missal, she had to pencil in changes ordered in 1958 and 1962…

It was not static, merely nearly so, from Trent to Vatican II.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Yes this is a fishing expedition. I am hungry!

What exactly are you hungry for?

\as all liturgies being celebrated by a cleric of the Catholic Church, mentions the current Pope by name when commemorating him.\

Not always. There are some Byzantine churches that follow the “one step up” rule, where a priest or deacon commemorates the diocesan bishop, the bishop the patriarch, and only the Patriarch commemorates the pope.

 

[Aramis]

\as all liturgies being celebrated by a cleric of the Catholic Church, mentions the current Pope by name when commemorating him.\

Not always. There are some Byzantine churches that follow the “one step up” rule, where a priest or deacon commemorates the diocesan bishop, the bishop the patriarch, and only the Patriarch commemorates the pope.

Which?

Every Catholic liturgy I’ve seen includes the papal and metropolitan commemorations.

 

[Aramis]

Which?

Every Catholic liturgy I’ve seen includes the papal and metropolitan commemorations.

Need to correct myself; I just read one that lacks the metropolitan… The Book of Divine Worship (Anglican Use missal approved by HH JP II) lacks the metropolitan.
AU BODW USA:

That it may please thee to bless N., our Pope, and N., our
Bishop,
We beseech thee to hear us, good Lord.

Italics original.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Is “and N., our Bishop” not their Metropolitan?

 

[malphono]

Is “and N., our Bishop” not their Metropolitan?

Not necessarily. The metropolitan is the head of the ecclesiastical province.

In any case, this tangent actually has nothing to do with this thread anyway since the Maronites do not really have ecclesiastical provinces.

 

[Aramis]

Is “and N., our Bishop” not their Metropolitan?

Their Metropolitan-Archbishop is only their bishop if they are in the archdiocese/archeparchy proper, rather than the eccelsiastical province

Province = Archdiocese, and 1+ suffragan dioceses.
Metropolia = Archeparchy, and 1+ suffragan dioceses
The head of a province is the archbishop or metropolitan of the archdiocese or archeparchy.

It is normal for a commemoration to be in the form of “Our bishop N, our Archbishop N., and N., the Pope of Rome”

 

[OurLady01]

\ I noticed in the Maronite Liturgy the priest facing the people rather than God, \

Since God is omnipresent, wheresoever the priest faces, he faces God.

Your statements are very offensive. You ought to be more concerned, you don’t offend God.