Maronite Signing Of the Chalice experince

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gmcbroom

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I went to my local Maronite Catholic Church and witnessed something I may never get the privilege of experiencing again. I’ve attended the signing of the Chalice before and I felt truly sorrowful as is fitting for Good Friday. However,this year I was truly Awe struck. Why you ask? Well, this year there was a distinguished guest. An Antiochene Orthodox Bishop new to our area was allowed to participate along side the Maronite Priest and Deacon. While the Maronite Priest led the ceremony the Bishop concelebrated with him. The Bishop even read one of the Deacon parts from the Qurbono while standing by the Bema. To me it sounded truly haunting and I was filled with Awe. I wish that Bishop well where ever he goes. I truly pray for the day when we will all be one. My Church is amazing. Though the building is Maronite it also hosts an Indian Orthodox Church in the Chapel once a week, as well as twice a month a Byzantine Catholic Mission. Plus for awhile though I’m not certain if they still meet there a Russian Orthodox mission which I think may be through ROCOR.

He is Risen!
 
gmcbroom said:
I went to my local Maronite Catholic Church and witnessed something I may never get the privilege of experiencing again. I’ve attended the signing of the Chalice before and I felt truly sorrowful as is fitting for Good Friday. However,this year I was truly Awe struck. Why you ask? Well, this year there was a distinguished guest. An Antiochene Orthodox Bishop new to our area was allowed to participate along side the Maronite Priest and Deacon. While the Maronite Priest led the ceremony the Bishop concelebrated with him. The Bishop even read one of the Deacon parts from the Qurbono while standing by the Bema. To me it sounded truly haunting and I was filled with Awe. I wish that Bishop well where ever he goes. I truly pray for the day when we will all be one. My Church is amazing. Though the building is Maronite it also hosts an Indian Orthodox Church in the Chapel once a week, as well as twice a month a Byzantine Catholic Mission. Plus for awhile though I’m not certain if they still meet there a Russian Orthodox mission which I think may be through ROCOR.

He is Risen!
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👍 This is awesome news! It makes me think of Fr. Lev Gillet (aka "A Monk of the Eastern Church). Although he was originally a Roman Catholic, he became Eastern Catholic and eventually Orthodox. He never had an official transition into Orthodoxy. He simply concelebrated Divine Liturgy with the local Russian Orthodox bishop; no renunciation of Roman errors, no profession of Faith, etc. From then on he was considered Orthodox.
 
Both of these posts are so wonderful to read! Officially, though, are Orthodox Priests and Bishops allowed to concelebrate? I had heard that it wasn’t allowed.
 
Concelebration is not allowed, and I sincerely hope that what you witnessed was not an official liturgical cooperation. Was this bishop vested with his mitre? Are you certain that he was Antiochian Orthodox and not Melkite Greek-catholic?

I don’t think that Marionites are lepers, but this is still totally inappropriate. False union is no union at all.
 
While I’m not surprised of the negative response by an orthodox, to be fair, Protestants feel the same way about Catholics.
 
DadDave said:
While I’m not surprised of the negative response by an orthodox, to be fair, Protestants feel the same way about Catholics.
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I highly doubt that a Protestant would be concerned with fidelity to the apostolic canons of the ecumenical councils. There are canons which forbid prayer with those outside of the Orthodox Catholic Church.

Your post seems to imply that there is some kind of a common aversion for Roman Catholicism between Protestantism and Orthodoxy, and frankly I think the comparison is absurd. Protestants and Roman Catholics essentially speak the same theological language and suffer from the same presuppositional approaches in their critiques of one another, so to me Protestants and Roman Catholics are the ones that come out looking similar in many ways.

Anyway, I actually have a lot of respect for Roman Catholics, just not for our Orthodox bishops that ignore the canons that are not suited to their personal opinions or feelings, even if they cause scandal among the faithful. I was expressing my displeasure if there was truly some kind of vesting and officially celebration, as this bishop would need to be disciplined by his synod.
 
In defense of the bishop, if he is fresh over from the Middle East his actions may have been innocent enough. Concelebration and communion between Catholics and Orthodox is very common in the Middle East, so I’m told; common to the point that there are Catholic pastors of Orthodox parishes and vice versa. I guess when you’re struggling simply to survive the differences between Catholics and Orthodox become trivial at best. For the bishop it may have been business as usual.

As far as the remarks in the differences or seeming similarities between Catholics and Protestants are concerned, you’re simply wrong. The more traditional Protestants may be closer to Catholicism than other forms of Protestantism, but they still tend to speak very different languages, despite their use of St. Augustine. You’re also making the mistake of lumping all Catholics under Roman Catholicism and presuming that they use Roman/Latin terminology in their theological language. This is simply not the case. As others have said before me, Eastern Catholics more often than not have more in common with their Orthodox counterparts than they do with their Roman brethren.
 
I suppose it’s worth noting here that the service in question (Signing of the Chalice) is not Mass. It is a Liturgy of the Presanctified which, according to current discipline (in fact since the 18th century), is done only on Great (Good) Friday. So, in fact, even if the bishop in question was AOC, there was actually no “concelebration” involved.
 
DadDave said:
While I’m not surprised of the negative response by an orthodox, to be fair, Protestants feel the same way about Catholics.
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I was being a bit snarky to Alveus Lacuna. It was uncharitable for me to say that and I apologize.

I was trying to say that if a Protestant was praising a Catholic priest con-celebrating a communion service with a Protestant Minister, Catholics would be all up in arms and giving a negative view to others joy at apparent inter-communion. Sorry was just being a smart arse…
 
he Eucharist, like the other Mysteries, is a communal celebration. Salvation is not an individualistic matter. We are saved through and with others. The community of Christ is mutually supportive of its members. At each celebration of the Eucharist, the joys and sorrows, successes and failures, sufferings and triumphs of our brothers and sisters in Christ are experienced in togetherness. The strong come to assist the weak; the rich seek to help the poor; the joyful strive to comfort the sorrowing. All are impelled by the Word of the Gospel, and all of our sacrifices are united with the sacrifice of the Eucharist. Therefore, attending Sunday Liturgy is not merely a question of obligation, but is the very life and heart of the Christian community. London Airport Escorts . 👍
 
Alveus_Lacuna said:
Concelebration is not allowed, and I sincerely hope that what you witnessed was not an official liturgical cooperation. Was this bishop vested with his mitre? Are you certain that he was Antiochian Orthodox and not Melkite Greek-catholic?

I don’t think that Marionites are lepers, but this is still totally inappropriate. False union is no union at all.
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The law which you speak of is not unique Orthodox Church.

Code of Cannons of the Eastern Churches:

CCEO,702: Catholic priests are forbidden to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with non-Catholic priests or ministers.

and Codes of Cannons (Western Cannons):

CIC, 908: Catholic priests are forbidden to concelebrate the Eucharist with priests or ministers of Churches or ecclesial communities which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church.

I recall a Maronite priest in Lebanon try and explain to me that Can. 702 was referring to the Orthodox priests not allowed to concelebrate with Catholic priests, but it did not forbid Catholic priests from concelebrating with the Orthodox. The jist of what he was trying to say was that Catholic priests were not allowed to concelebrate at Orthodox liturgies, but Orthodox priests could concelebrate at Catholic ones. :banghead: This seems about right for the goose farm.*
 
Alveus_Lacuna said:
I highly doubt that a Protestant would be concerned with fidelity to the apostolic canons of the ecumenical councils. There are canons which forbid prayer with those outside of the Orthodox -]Catholic/-] -]C/-]church(es).

Your post seems to imply that there is some kind of a common aversion for Roman Catholicism between Protestantism and Orthodoxy, and frankly I think the comparison is absurd. Protestants and Roman Catholics essentially speak the same theological language and suffer from the same presuppositional approaches in their critiques of one another, so to me Protestants and Roman Catholics are the ones that come out looking similar in many ways.

Anyway, I actually have a lot of respect for Roman Catholics, just not for our Orthodox bishops that ignore the canons that are not suited to their personal opinions or feelings, even if they cause scandal among the faithful. I was expressing my displeasure if there was truly some kind of vesting and officially celebration, as this bishop would need to be disciplined by his synod.
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Your emboldened comments suggest you do not. This is a thread about Maronite Catholicism and Antiochene Orthodoxy and not “Roman Catholicism.”

If you honestly believe that Eastern Catholics are “Roman Catholic” then you need to educate yourself. If you are using this verbiage to be offensive, you should stop.
 
gmcbroom said:
I went to my local Maronite Catholic Church and witnessed something I may never get the privilege of experiencing again. I’ve attended the signing of the Chalice before and I felt truly sorrowful as is fitting for Good Friday. However,this year I was truly Awe struck. Why you ask? Well, this year there was a distinguished guest. An Antiochene Orthodox Bishop new to our area was allowed to participate along side the Maronite Priest and Deacon. While the Maronite Priest led the ceremony the Bishop concelebrated with him. The Bishop even read one of the Deacon parts from the Qurbono while standing by the Bema. To me it sounded truly haunting and I was filled with Awe. I wish that Bishop well where ever he goes. I truly pray for the day when we will all be one. My Church is amazing. Though the building is Maronite it also hosts an Indian Orthodox Church in the Chapel once a week, as well as twice a month a Byzantine Catholic Mission. Plus for awhile though I’m not certain if they still meet there a Russian Orthodox mission which I think may be through ROCOR.

He is Risen!
Click to expand...
I’m actually more interested in the Bema.
 
Lomoyooto said:
*I once read that the Turkish word for a goose farm is ‘Kaslik’
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MorEphrem said:
My, my, we should be more reverent to the all-knowing goose farm that destroys our liturgy.
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Love it! Love it! love it! 😃 Since it’s not among the small handful of Turkish words with which I’m familiar, curiosity got the better of me and I had a quick look at google. Lo! and behold! “kaz” indeed is a goose! The “farm” part doesn’t quite fit, but it is distinctly possible that the compound word is an idiomatic one from the Ottoman period. 😉 But for the purpose here, “goose” is good enough. How Amazingly apropos.:eek: 😃
 
MorEphraim & Malphono do either of you have any thoughts about the rite of the signing of the chalice? I noticed when reading though the prayers in the Syriac there is a whole chunk from the middle that is taken out of the Anaphora of Mor Peter the apostle (III) Does our one have any connection with the Melkite version?
 
Lomoyooto said:
MorEphraim & Malphono do either of you have any thoughts about the rite of the signing of the chalice? I noticed when reading though the prayers in the Syriac there is a whole chunk from the middle that is taken out of the Anaphora of Mor Peter the apostle (III) Does our one have any connection with the Melkite version?
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Have a look [post=11489216]here[/post]. 😉
 
Lomoyooto said:
MorEphraim & Malphono do either of you have any thoughts about the rite of the signing of the chalice?
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Well I just find it entertaining - we simply take the Institution Narrative out of an Anaphora and call it a “pre-sanctified Anaphora” - luckily we’re not Latins because that would be all types of invalid. I’m also entertained that the diptychs in the signing of the chalice are better translated than the normal anaphorae - although before the service, I took a pen out of my bag and crossed out the “fourth” “holy council” addition.

Anyway, I don’t see much resemblance of the signing of the chalice to the Melkite presancitifed. The presancs I’ve been to with Melkites have been vespers with basically some transfer prayers and then communion.
 
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