Maronites are (Roman) Catholic?

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I’ve seen all these used on www.vatican.va

Greek-Melkite rite
Byzantine Rite
Byzantine-Ruthenian Rite
Byzantine-Ukrainian Rite
Byzantine-Romanian rite
Maronite Rite
Armenian Rite
Chaldean Rite

Ordinaries of the Armenian, Chaldean and Latin Rite Churches

Year 2000

"… there will be celebrations in these rites: *East Syrian, Syro-Antiochene (2), Alexandrian-Ethiopian, Copt, Armenian, Byzantine, Ambrosian and Mozarabic."
*
Syro-Antiochene Rite (Maronite)
Syro-Oriental Rite (Chaldean and Malabar)
East Syrian Rite (Chaldean and Malabarese)

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1203 The liturgical traditions or rites presently in use in the Church are the Latin (principally the Roman rite, but also the rites of certain local churches, such as the Ambrosian rite, or those of certain religious orders) and the Byzantine, Alexandrian or Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite and Chaldean rites. In "faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognized rites to be of equal right and dignity, and that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way."69
 
malphono said:
“Roman” is merely one, (albeit ubiquitous and by far the largest), rite within the Latin Rite family.
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Exactly. That’s the problem - hinted at by others in this very thread - with the phrase “the Latin Rite.” Which Latin rite? I want to ask.
 
ADDRESS OF HIS EMINENCE CARDINAL FRANCIS ARINZE (2006)
  1. Different Rites in the Church

    In the sacred liturgy the Church celebrates the mysteries of Christ by means of signs, symbols, gestures, movements, material elements and words. In this reflection we are focusing on words used in divine worship in the Roman or Latin Rite.

    The core elements of the sacred liturgy, the seven sacraments, come from our Lord Jesus Christ himself. As the Church spread and grew among various peoples and cultures, various ways of celebrating the mysteries of Christ also developed. Four parent rites can be identified as the Antiochene, Alexandrine, Roman and Gallican. They gave rise to nine major rites in the Catholic Church today: in the Latin Church the Roman Rite is predominant, and then among the Eastern Churches we find the Byzantine, Armenian, Chaldean, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malabar, Maronite and Syrian Rites.

    Each “Rite” is an historic blending of liturgy, theology, spirituality and Canon Law. The fundamental characteristics of each undoubtedly go back to the earliest centuries, the essentials to the apostolic age if not to Our Lord himself.

    The Roman Rite, which is the subject of our reflection, is in modern times, as we have said, the predominant liturgical expression of the ecclesial culture we call the Latin Rite. You will know that in and around the Archdiocese of Milan a “sister Rite” is in use that takes its name from St Ambrose, the great Bishop of Milan: the “Ambrosian Rite”. In certain locations and on special occasions the liturgy is celebrated in Spain according to the ancient Hispanic or Mozarabic Rite. These two venerable exceptions do not concern us here.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20061111_gateway-conference_en.html

So he presents it, in outline

Parent Rites:
Antiochene, Alexandrine, Roman, and Gallican

Major Rites
1 Roman
2 Byzantine
3 Armenian
4 Chaldean
5 Coptic
6 Ethiopian
7 Malabar
8 Maronite
9 Syrian

**Sister Rites within the Latin Rite Culture: **
Roman, Ambrosian, and Mozarabic
 
In all honesty I when asked usually just identify as catholic as its just easier to say less confusion. When speaking with my Latin catholic friends I’ll sometimes identify as maronite. But, sometimes that causes confusion, I’ve been accused of not be catholic, as well as being orthodox, even being called marionites. Sometimes, I’ll correct them sometimes I’ll just let it lie to keep the peace.
 
gmcbroom said:
In all honesty I when asked usually just identify as catholic as its just easier to say less confusion. When speaking with my Latin catholic friends I’ll sometimes identify as maronite. But, sometimes that causes confusion, I’ve been accused of not be catholic, as well as being orthodox, even being called marionites. Sometimes, I’ll correct them sometimes I’ll just let it lie to keep the peace.
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So true. I have friends who I’ve known for a couple years who still call me a marionite or a marianite.
 
Roman Catholic means to follow under the head of roman under the Pope. Maronite’s are both western and eastern rite.The only church that is both western and eastern to never leave or brake away from the Roman church from the Pope. So, Roman Catholic(follows under the orders of roman/Pope) through the Maronite rite(the rite of the mass).
YES Maronite’s are Roman Catholic but through the maronite rite order and mass, not latin rite order and mass.

Also, The Lord’s Prayer is in Aramaic and many other parts of the mass. The language Our Lord spoke. So if you are ever blessed to attend a maronite mass, just listen and think these are the words Our Lord said, the same way he spoke them. Amazing!!! Beautiful!
 
Hi Angelic4ever. 🙂 I’m not going to tell you to stop calling yourself “Roman Catholic”, but I just want to point out that some people may be confused by it, if they take “Roman Catholic” to be a shortened form of “Roman-Rite Catholic”.
 
Maronites are not the only sui juris Church to never break communion with Rome. The Italo-Greeks, a Byzantine-rite Church, also share that honor.
 
Cecilianus said:
Maronites are not the only sui juris Church to never break communion with Rome. The Italo-Greeks, a Byzantine-rite Church, also share that honor.
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more importantly, they never lost touch with Rome, either.

Well, they were suppressed by an antipope for a few years… but that really counts far less than the maronite 500 year gap.
 
So what about the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church?

I’ve heard conflicting things about whether or not they were out of communion with Rome.

Is that because the history of Christianity in India is extraordinarily complex? Does it have to do with the uncertainty surrounding the extent to which India’s Christians were affiliated with the Church of the East?

The Portuguese Latin Catholics didn’t really get it when they encountered them, right?

Do we know if we can assert in any meaningful sense whether or not the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church was ever out of communion with Rome?
 
Aramis said:
more importantly, they never lost touch with Rome, either.

Well, they were suppressed by an antipope for a few years… but that really counts far less than the maronite 500 year gap.
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So I have a question for you…why do catholics want to divide each other so much? One is above the other? THis means ones more important? 🤷

God Bless my brothers & sisters!!! :):cool:👍:D;):p:cool:
 
Hasire said:
The ordinary of the Patriarchs is the Vicar of Christ, the Pope, who is the ordinary of the whole Catholic Church. Or are you denying the “supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls” of the Pope? He’s the Pope of All Catholics, just not Roman ones.

Also, according to your logic, as other countries have their own Primates, the Pope is only the Primate of Italy? No, he is still above all Primates and all Patriarchs.
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shouldn’t we take it one step further and say he’s Pope of all humanity?

God calls all people to Him, not just Catholics.
 
Angelic4ever said:
Roman Catholic means to follow under the head of roman under the Pope. Maronite’s are both western and eastern rite. …

So, Roman Catholic(follows under the orders of roman/Pope) through the Maronite rite(the rite of the mass).
YES Maronite’s are Roman Catholic but through the maronite rite order and mass, not latin rite order and mass.
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Sorry but no, that’s not correct. At least not traditionally or historically. To be both “Western & Eastern” simultaneously presents an insoluble dichotomy.

Further, it is incorrect to say that we “follow the orders of Rome.” We are, for better or worse, in communion with Rome, but we are NOT, whether traditionally or historically (and some would venture to say even legally) speaking, under Rome.
Angelic4ever said:
The only church that is both western and eastern to never leave or brake away from the Roman church from the Pope.
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It’s true that there was never a formal “break” in Communion… Beyond that, I won’t comment.
Angelic4ever said:
Also, The Lord’s Prayer is in Aramaic and many other parts of the mass. The language Our Lord spoke. So if you are ever blessed to attend a maronite mass, just listen and think these are the words Our Lord said, the same way he spoke them. Amazing!!! Beautiful!
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Where is this church?

The unfortunate fact is that very little is done in Syriac. Three things are mandated: what is called the “access to the altar” (and which, due to Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations, is now a misnomer), the Trisagion, and the Institution Narrative. Beyond that, (and a few hymns here and there, and even those are rearely, if ever, done in the truly traditional manner) it is exceedingly rare, whether in the Patriarchal Territories or in the diaspora, to hear anything else.

What is NOT rare, however, and equally unfortunately, is to see Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations run amok. 😦
 
Angelic4ever said:
So I have a question for you…why do catholics want to divide each other so much? One is above the other? THis means ones more important? 🤷

God Bless my brothers & sisters!!! :):cool:👍:D;):p:cool:
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No. We want visible unity, but truth is important. Both dogmatic truth, and historical truth.

The Maronites never broke from Rome, but definitely were not visibly in union - which is important in understanding their patterns of behavior following the return.

The Italo-Albanians never had to “prove” they were in union with Rome, and so suffered fewer latinizations. The Maronites pretty much destroyed their own traditions to prove to Rome that they were Catholic - And Rome did nothing to discourage this.

It is important in knowing who they are to understand their separation’s effects.
 
Aramis said:
The Maronites never broke from Rome, but definitely were not visibly in union - which is important in understanding their patterns of behavior following the return. …

The Maronites pretty much destroyed their own traditions to prove to Rome that they were Catholic - And Rome did nothing to discourage this.
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It’s a bit more complicated than that. I’m not going into a lesson on Maronite history, but briefly, one has to consider that the vaulted “return” was long before any serious latinizations came to be. The latinizations began in earnest in the late 16th century, and were a direct result of the so-called Maronite College, first established in Rome by Gregory XIII in 1584 (I think it was). While the Maronites themselves had no part in its creation, we certainly have suffered (and continue to suffer) its consequences. And, while it’s true that Rome did nothing to discourage latinizations at that time, it’s also true that the latinizations would not have happened in the first place if not for Rome’s interference.

The latinizsations of the 16th century have now, for the most part at least, been replaced by Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations. As I have said so often in this forum, those latter are far more insidious and destructive than anything that came before. Unfortunately, it is, of course, also true that Rome remains silent as our patrimony continues to be diluted day by day. :mad:
 
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