Marriage a Lie???

[anrmenchaca47]

I dont know who else I can talk to about this?..

It seems that when it comes to religion my wife and I have totally different views about God. Last night we got into a heated discussion which actually started off good.

We started talking about this issue regarding gay rights and christian businesses and brought up a case of a 70 year old florist who refused service to a gay couple because of her christian beliefs and ended up being sued and losing.

Her view on the case was, “Well we dont know all the details as far as how the florist handled the situation? For all we know, she could have behaved in an ugly, discriminatory way towards the couple which in turn offended the couple and which kick-started the lawsuit.” My wife goes on… “She could have handled it differently by saying ’ I really can’t help you right now but I know someone who can’.” I interjected by saying “In saying that, she (the florist) would be outrightly denying Christ and not sticking to her convictions as a christian. It’s the same as when Peter denied Christ, in the same way the florist would be denying Christ by lying about helping the couple.”

My wife says she does not agree with homosexuality saying if a situation were to arise as in the case of the 70 year old florist,she(my wife) would politely respond “I cannot help you because it is against my faith.” but by the same token she doesn’t judge them, but loves all people and is in no place to persecute and/or judge. Her concern is “WE need to teach **OUR **children God’s way and not worry about the rest of the world.”

However, when i posed the same scenario regarding a beloved relative, who is in a relationship with a same sex partner, she felt attacked because it was personal. The point i was trying to make was how is it that she can express her belief to total strangers(hypothetically speaking of course) but yet cannot express her belief to her cousin…

 

[anrmenchaca47]

The reason I say this is because I had asked a question to a priest friend of ours regarding what I would do as a man of faith. How do i address a situation in which a gay couple would be invited to my house( This is where the cousin comes into play) and my children were present and this couple would hold hands in front of them? My priest friend says that I should politely ask that they not do that in my house out of respect for my family…but THIS is where the discussion took a turn for the worse…

My wife believes that if her cousin and her partner would come to our house invited, that its ok for them to show affection by holding hands…that there is nothing wrong with showing love for one another…I retorted and said “How can you sit there and claim to me that you would politely ask strangers to respect our beliefs yet you wouldn’t be willing to express those beliefs to your cousin while she would be in our house?”

She believes that there is nothing wrong with same sex couple holding hands because they love each other. I find that contradictory and that puts me in a odd spot…

My wife then posses a similar question to me and asks “What if one of your sons was gay, would you turn them away?” I’ll be honest…that was a difficult question for me because it hit a nerve…It hit a nerve because as a man of faith I would be contradicting myself in regards to my views on homosexuality…I told her that I would still love my son but what he does with his life is between him and God…So she continues and presses on…“Would you allow him in your house with a same sex partner…”(hypothetically speaking of course) well, i answered that he would need to respect my house by not showing affection and if he couldn’t then he would not be welcome in my home…HERE is where it completely fell apart…she said that he would be welcome in **HER **home…

What am I supposed do here? We don’t agree on the sames things…her beliefs are totally different from mine. Her view on God is different from mine…she views my beliefs as Old Testament style God’s Wrath as in Sodom and Gomorrah, and her views are as Jesus loves all, God is love no matter what…

The same thing happened when my fourth child was born, when she nearly died after giving birth. She struggled through out her pregnancy…it was very hard for her and we almost lost our daughter…She felt it necesarry that I get a vasectomy so that way she wouldn’t have to worry about getting pregnant and going though another difficult pregnancy…I told her that I don’t believe in getting a vasectomy, that it is not what God would want…she, on the other hand, said that God would understand…smh… well…she started acting very passive aggressive with me, saying she would go and have her tubes tied…I told her that THAT is not the answer either but as you can imagine…she doesn’t believe that…

She then throws in MY face how HER brother-in-law is VERY considerate of his wife and HE didn’t want her to suffer so he got one…basically saying that I wasnt’ being sensitive and considerate to her needs…

Well…i no longer wanted to go through with that torment and ended up getting the vasectomy…I felt humiliated and awful because I had committed a great sin against God…she didn’t see it that way…But of course I had to lie to her and tell her that I did see the importance of a vasectomy and I would go through with it…of course this is a lie and I still feel awful about…

My point to all this is that I have no one I can speak to…I can’t openly speak to her about faith and morals because her views are totally different than mine…and we ALWAYS get into it with religion…

God is probably going to punish me for siding with her…smh…i give up…If its not her views then its nothing at all…I always have to compromise with her just to keep things sane in my house… :crying:…I really dont have anyone to talk to…so…I am sorry for venting…

 

[anrmenchaca47]

Pt. 2

The reason I say this is because I had asked a question to a priest friend of ours regarding what I would do as a man of faith. How do i address a situation in which a gay couple would be invited to my house( This is where the cousin comes into play) and my children were present and this couple would hold hands in front of them? My priest friend says that I should politely ask that they not do that in my house out of respect for my family…but THIS is where the discussion took a turn for the worse…

My wife believes that if her cousin and her partner would come to our house invited, that its ok for them to show affection by holding hands…that there is nothing wrong with showing love for one another…I retorted and said “How can you sit there and claim to me that you would politely ask strangers to respect our beliefs yet you wouldn’t be willing to express those beliefs to your cousin while she would be in our house?”

She believes that there is nothing wrong with same sex couple holding hands because they love each other. I find that contradictory and that puts me in a odd spot…

My wife then posses a similar question to me and asks “What if one of your sons was gay, would you turn them away?” I’ll be honest…that was a difficult question for me because it hit a nerve…It hit a nerve because as a man of faith I would be contradicting myself in regards to my views on homosexuality…I told her that I would still love my son but what he does with his life is between him and God…So she continues and presses on…“Would you allow him in your house with a same sex partner…”(hypothetically speaking of course) well, i answered that he would need to respect my house by not showing affection and if he couldn’t then he would not be welcome in my home…HERE is where it completely fell apart…she said that he would be welcome in HER home…

What am I supposed do here? We don’t agree on the sames things…her beliefs are totally different from mine. Her view on God is different from mine…she views my beliefs as Old Testament style God’s Wrath as in Sodom and Gomorrah, and her views are as Jesus loves all, God is love no matter what…

The same thing happened when my fourth child was born, when she nearly died after giving birth. She struggled through out her pregnancy…it was very hard for her and we almost lost our daughter…She felt it necesarry that I get a vasectomy so that way she wouldn’t have to worry about getting pregnant and going though another difficult pregnancy…I told her that I don’t believe in getting a vasectomy, that it is not what God would want…she, on the other hand, said that God would understand…smh… well…she started acting very passive aggressive with me, saying she would go and have her tubes tied…I told her that THAT is not the answer either but as you can imagine…she doesn’t believe that…

She then throws in MY face how HER brother-in-law is VERY considerate of his wife and HE didn’t want her to suffer so he got one…basically saying that I wasnt’ being sensitive and considerate to her needs…

Well…i no longer wanted to go through with that torment and ended up getting the vasectomy…I felt humiliated and awful because I had committed a great sin against God…she didn’t see it that way…But of course I had to lie to her and tell her that I did see the importance of a vasectomy and I would go through with it…of course this is a lie and I still feel awful about…

My point to all this is that I have no one I can speak to…I can’t openly speak to her about faith and morals because her views are totally different than mine…and we ALWAYS get into it with religion…

God is probably going to punish me for siding with her…smh…i give up…If its not her views then its nothing at all…I always have to compromise with her just to keep things sane in my house… …I really dont have anyone to talk to…so…I am sorry for venting…

 

[ThankUJP2]

Frequent the sacraments, especially confession and communion. Talk to your priest friend and find a good spiritual director. The culture at large is working very hard to undermine the family and Catholic faith. Many are deceived. You and your family are in my prayers.

 

[nodito]

I’m sorry you are struggling in your marriage.

I’m not sure where you get the title “marriage a lie.” Lots of married couples have disagreements about faith and applications of faith. Lots of couples debate these issues and can’t come to an agreement. It doesn’t mean your marriage is based on a lie or that all is hopeless.

If you were my friend and you came to me for advice, I’d tell you to lay off the religious discussion with your wife. No good has come of it so far, right? So stop bringing up issues that have the potential to become contentious and stop with the hypotheticals. If one of your sons comes out as gay, cross that bridge then. In the meantime, you really don’t need to hash out the particulars of what he and his fake/madeup boyfriend will or will not be allowed to do in your house, right? Are there plans in your immediate future to invite your wife’s cousin to your home? If not, it’s a hypothetical, and you don’t need to decide right now how you would handle him bringing his partner.

Work on building up the marriage, not tearing it down. You’ve realized that certain topics degenerate into arguments. Avoid those topics for the time being and instead work on reconnecting with you wife. Ask her about her favorite activities or what she’s looking forward to or what you two can improve in the house. Take her out to dinner. And pray for her. There’s a book called the Secret Diary of Elizabeth Leseur about a woman married to an athiest who became a priest after her death. I haven’t read it, but I think it details all the prayers and sacrifices she offered for her spouse while she was alive, which might be a good example for how you can love your wife. Scott Hahn also discusses how he led his wife to Catholicism, not by intellectual arguments, but by being loving and romantic. Your wife is already Catholic, right? So you’ve got a head start. Love her intensely and stop focusing on your differences in theology.

I WOULD advise you to reflect on how you would like to handle the vasectomy. You sound repentant; have you been to confession yet? That should be the first stop. Know that the Church does not require you to have it reversed, and once your sin is forgiven, it is gone. That said, if you really feel disgusted with the situation, you might consider the possibility of having it reversed. This should be part of an overarching and very calm discussion with your wife (and maybe a counselor?) on how you feel you violated your own conscience by doing this and you wished that you hadn’t because, although you care for her deeply, you know that it was wrong. I think you need to offer at the same time to do things that will help reassure your wife that you do not want to endanger her life. Are you prepared, for example, to offer complete or long periods of abstinence?

As for friendship, are there men’s groups in your parish? Could you start meeting with a spiritual counselor or a priest on a regular basis? Join a bible study? It seems like you’re interested in religious discussions, and in your case, I’d advise you to look outside your marriage to meet this need.

 

[SayehMahtabi]

As for the holding hands: If you knew that your (hypothetical, adult) son and his girlfriend were living together before marriage, would you make this arbitrary requirement that they not hold hands in your house?

And as for your wife getting her tubes tied: I assume from your comments that you are completely opposed to birth control of any sort, but you are probably open to NFP. Are you willing to give up sex with your wife until she goes through menopause? NFP is very highly effective, but if I were you, even a 0.0001% chance that my wife might get pregnant and die would make me lose any interest in sex. In any case, the marital debt is no longer relevant in such a situation, and I would understand if she were unwilling to have sex with you.

 

[Scears]

I would never have listened to her. It’s your body.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Pt. 2

The reason I say this is because I had asked a question to a priest friend of ours regarding what I would do as a man of faith. How do i address a situation in which a gay couple would be invited to my house( This is where the cousin comes into play) and my children were present and this couple would hold hands in front of them? My priest friend says that I should politely ask that they not do that in my house out of respect for my family…but THIS is where the discussion took a turn for the worse…

My wife believes that if her cousin and her partner would come to our house invited, that its ok for them to show affection by holding hands…that there is nothing wrong with showing love for one another…I retorted and said “How can you sit there and claim to me that you would politely ask strangers to respect our beliefs yet you wouldn’t be willing to express those beliefs to your cousin while she would be in our house?”

She believes that there is nothing wrong with same sex couple holding hands because they love each other. I find that contradictory and that puts me in a odd spot…

My wife then posses a similar question to me and asks “What if one of your sons was gay, would you turn them away?” I’ll be honest…that was a difficult question for me because it hit a nerve…It hit a nerve because as a man of faith I would be contradicting myself in regards to my views on homosexuality…I told her that I would still love my son but what he does with his life is between him and God…So she continues and presses on…“Would you allow him in your house with a same sex partner…”(hypothetically speaking of course) well, i answered that he would need to respect my house by not showing affection and if he couldn’t then he would not be welcome in my home…HERE is where it completely fell apart…she said that he would be welcome in HER home…

What am I supposed do here? We don’t agree on the sames things…her beliefs are totally different from mine. Her view on God is different from mine…she views my beliefs as Old Testament style God’s Wrath as in Sodom and Gomorrah, and her views are as Jesus loves all, God is love no matter what…

The same thing happened when my fourth child was born, when she nearly died after giving birth. She struggled through out her pregnancy…it was very hard for her and we almost lost our daughter…She felt it necesarry that I get a vasectomy so that way she wouldn’t have to worry about getting pregnant and going though another difficult pregnancy…I told her that I don’t believe in getting a vasectomy, that it is not what God would want…she, on the other hand, said that God would understand…smh… well…she started acting very passive aggressive with me, saying she would go and have her tubes tied…I told her that THAT is not the answer either but as you can imagine…she doesn’t believe that…

She then throws in MY face how HER brother-in-law is VERY considerate of his wife and HE didn’t want her to suffer so he got one…basically saying that I wasnt’ being sensitive and considerate to her needs…

Well…i no longer wanted to go through with that torment and ended up getting the vasectomy…I felt humiliated and awful because I had committed a great sin against God…she didn’t see it that way…But of course I had to lie to her and tell her that I did see the importance of a vasectomy and I would go through with it…of course this is a lie and I still feel awful about…

My point to all this is that I have no one I can speak to…I can’t openly speak to her about faith and morals because her views are totally different than mine…and we ALWAYS get into it with religion…

God is probably going to punish me for siding with her…smh…i give up…If its not her views then its nothing at all…I always have to compromise with her just to keep things sane in my house… …I really dont have anyone to talk to…so…I am sorry for venting…

My wife and I have these discussion all the time. It’s not a matter of your marriage being a lie, but approaching any given discussion from a different perspective. I usually go with logical, objective and ‘hardline’, my wife from the emotional, subjective and soft line. Neither are inherently right or wrong.

Regarding “showing affection for each other”, maybe we are puritanical but we don’t do PDA around other people other than when we are alone and maybe if the kids happen to be home. I’d expect my heterosexual friends - married or not - to not be doing anything in my house either.

As to God punishing you, look at it this way - when you got married you made a vow that you and your wife are one. You are entrusted with body, mind, and soul, as well as her salvation as well as your own. You try as far as you can to convince your wife of your faith based view (convincing is not only debate, but showing charity and love) - you can only be ‘liable’ as far as you tried. You can’t force her to accept your view. That you did the vasectomy - despite your reticence - may be mitigated by the pressure you were under from your other half. Have you been to confession about this? If so, let it go.

 

[Contarini]

Her view on the case was, “Well we dont know all the details as far as how the florist handled the situation? For all we know, she could have behaved in an ugly, discriminatory way towards the couple which in turn offended the couple and which kick-started the lawsuit.” My wife goes on… “She could have handled it differently by saying ’ I really can’t help you right now but I know someone who can’.” I interjected by saying “In saying that, she (the florist) would be outrightly denying Christ and not sticking to her convictions as a christian. It’s the same as when Peter denied Christ, in the same way the florist would be denying Christ by lying about helping the couple.”
.

That doesn’t help your bigger problem, but in fact I believe that the florist did what your wife suggested and what you think would be “denying Christ.”

That is to say, she offered to recommend another florist.

It sounds to me as if you and your wife are not that far apart on this issue, but that your sense of yourself as a “man of faith” requires you to take a pretty hardline stance which your wife sees as unloving or whatever. I’m not sure that faith really requires this of you. You and your wife do not actually disagree on the moral status of homosexuality, it appears.

Ironically, my wife and I have some of the same disagreements, again not so much about the basic theological issue but about the social/political implications.

I think in general what you need to do is to convince your wife that you love her and will go as far as your conscience will allow you to accommodate her concerns. Try very hard to express yourself humbly and not as if you are setting yourself up as “a man of faith” over against her presumed lesser spiritual status. I’m not saying you are doing that, but just check that you might be. You might even ask her if that’s how you are coming across, and if she says you are, then take that seriously instead of taking offense.

Edwin

 

[PJH_74]

Based on what you have brought up, it sounds like there’s bitterness on each side about not being heard. With regards to the vasectomy, it’s a fairly tough one. I can understand how you have strongly held beliefs on the topic. I can also understand how your wife faced death and doesn’t want to be pregnant again. I suspect what happened is that you went and got the vasectomy to get out of the conflict. This is probably a pattern in your relationship. What you both probably need to do it hear out each other’s feeling which both of you are entitled to. You probably also need to talk this out with a priest, I doubt you want to compound your feelings about sin regarding a vasectomy with divorce. I know this might not be of complete consolation to you, but you have 4 kids it’s not like you haven’t ignored the church’s teaching about having children. You also did it in the face of your wife’s near death. Keep in mind we are all broken people, we will fail at some point or another.

As for having a gay couple in your house, remember the issue for you wife is that this cousin is her family and for you this is a point of principle. The Catholic church teaches tolerance with regards to homosexuality while still holding it to be a sin. I don’t know how old your children are, but chances are if they are older they will be less shocked than you if these two guys hold hands. You can always let your position be known in a calm way to your children if they are old enough. You can always be an example to them about how to be gracious to people you disagree with, I guarantee this will make your point go further with your kids than confrontation. Also gay people are pretty aware of when to be affectionate around certain people and went not to be, chances are this is a fairly hypothetical concern.

 

[Thorolfr]

Ironically, my wife and I have some of the same disagreements, again not so much about the basic theological issue but about the social/political implications.

What social/political implications do you see?