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gracelife
Guest
From the scriptures can someone show me why marriage is a sacrament?
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TimOliv
Guest
You mean, besides Joseph and Mary, the parents of our Savior?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Adam and Eve? God Himself blessed their union and told them to be fruitful and multiply, and they were the first family.
Jesus telling us that “a man shall leave his mother and father, and a woman leave her family, and the two shall become one flesh?” And that what God has joined together, no man shall put asunder? You see, God is involved in marriage. That makes it a sacrament. That makes it holy. It isn’t just a man and a woman ‘choosing to be together’. In marriage, you are joined by GOD.
Jesus telling us that “a man shall leave his mother and father, and a woman leave her family, and the two shall become one flesh?” And that what God has joined together, no man shall put asunder? You see, God is involved in marriage. That makes it a sacrament. That makes it holy. It isn’t just a man and a woman ‘choosing to be together’. In marriage, you are joined by GOD.
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gracelife
Guest
But, it’s not a sacrament in Protestant circles? Why’d they throw it out?
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Erich
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Erich
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The first paragraph of the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the Sacrament of Marriage answers that question.
Later on in the same article, Ephesians 5:22 (and subsequent verses) is identified as the classical Scriptural proof text for why marriage is a sacrament.
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Damascus
Guest
Wrongo. When I was a Lutheran it was Baptism and Marriage as the only sacraments.
Which brand or flavor of Protestant are you thinking of that discards marriage as a sacrament???
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gracelife
Guest
eek! Which flavor Lutheran was that?Wrongo. When I was a Lutheran it was Baptism and Marriage as the only sacraments.
Which brand or flavor of Protestant are you thinking of that discards marriage as a sacrament???
I’ve never heard of such a thing!
Luther’s Small Catechism recognizes Baptism and Holy Communion as sacraments.
Great Link and resources Erich. Thanks for the info.
Anyone else? thoughts?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I’m thinking that some groups ‘tossed out’ the sacrament because of anticlericalism.
In fact, I believe that anticlericalism is really what was at the heart of the reformation, along with some other surprises.
Why have the Eucharist be symbolic, after 1500 years of the Real Presence? Because a “Real Presence” needed a real PRIEST for the consecration. A ‘symbol’ needed no such.
Ditto for the other sacraments. Make the priest a ‘witness’ and not an active representative for God,in a marriage and it’s okay. No need for Holy Orders if there is no need to have a priest, etc.
If you study history closely you’ll see the twin scourges of anticlericalism and nationalism were two of the biggest forces in driving the reformation. Power was the new god, and gaining power was the new goal.
Of course, today’s Protestants, many of whom come from 400-500 year traditions in their faith, are not active anticlericals on the whole, sincerely believe in their teachings, and many have thrown aside nationalism for the politically correct multiculturalism/diversity/indifferentism that is de rigeur in ‘smart circles’. Well, some Catholics have done the same so no pointing fingers here. May God lead us back to the One True Faith.
In fact, I believe that anticlericalism is really what was at the heart of the reformation, along with some other surprises.
Why have the Eucharist be symbolic, after 1500 years of the Real Presence? Because a “Real Presence” needed a real PRIEST for the consecration. A ‘symbol’ needed no such.
Ditto for the other sacraments. Make the priest a ‘witness’ and not an active representative for God,in a marriage and it’s okay. No need for Holy Orders if there is no need to have a priest, etc.
If you study history closely you’ll see the twin scourges of anticlericalism and nationalism were two of the biggest forces in driving the reformation. Power was the new god, and gaining power was the new goal.
Of course, today’s Protestants, many of whom come from 400-500 year traditions in their faith, are not active anticlericals on the whole, sincerely believe in their teachings, and many have thrown aside nationalism for the politically correct multiculturalism/diversity/indifferentism that is de rigeur in ‘smart circles’. Well, some Catholics have done the same so no pointing fingers here. May God lead us back to the One True Faith.
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Mommyof02green
Guest
Yes, that is what I’m wondering…Wrongo. When I was a Lutheran it was Baptism and Marriage as the only sacraments.
Which brand or flavor of Protestant are you thinking of that discards marriage as a sacrament???
I went to ELCA web-page and it said the only 2 sacraments are Baptism and Holy Communion Link: elca.org/communication/brief.html
I grew up in the LCMS and I was thinking that from what I remember that it was Baptism and Holy Communion; so I went to LCMS site…however I can’t find anything about sacraments…directly and I don’thave time to look now.
I know that there are difference between ELCA and LCMS…however I do believe that they have the same views when it comes to the sacraments.
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Damascus
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I think I really messed up on that one. I actually went to dig up my old Cat from that Church and I am still looking for it. Must be age that I cant remember it right. I did get baptised there but I really never read the Cat beforehand. I just recall that I went to a few weddings there and the feeling I got was it was a sacrament. I would not be surprised if I am wrong so I am sorry for commenting since Its been a long time and I did not take it too seriously then. But I never got the impression that it was not one. I suppose the Communion would be considered one too, but it was never a big deal at my church.
Epiphany Lutheran. nice place, but I guess I dont remember much about it.
Epiphany Lutheran. nice place, but I guess I dont remember much about it.
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spauline
Guest
whatever the case, OBJECTIVELY, Protestants in general only have Baptism and Marriage, even if they SUBJECTIVELY think they have Baptism and Communion.
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slowbutfaithful
Guest
No one has (yet) mentioned the fact that Jesus began His public ministry (His time had come) and performed His first miracle at … (drum roll) …
… a wedding
Is there a message there?
… a wedding
Is there a message there?
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kleary
Guest
Sorry - Lutherans believe in two sacraments- one being Baptism and the other being Eucharist.Wrongo. When I was a Lutheran it was Baptism and Marriage as the only sacraments.
Which brand or flavor of Protestant are you thinking of that discards marriage as a sacrament???
Ken
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Mintaka
Guest
Re: anticlericalism
IIRC, the priest is just there for extra blessings, being a witness, satisfying state regulations, and maybe celebrating the accompanying Nuptial Mass. The Sacrament of Marriage is celebrated by the bride and the groom.
The history of the sacrament is very interesting, btw. Priests didn’t start officiating until fairly late, both to emphasize that marriage was holy, not just a contract; and to make sure nothing unlawful and against anyone’s will was going on. For a long time, weddings were performed on the church steps…
IIRC, the priest is just there for extra blessings, being a witness, satisfying state regulations, and maybe celebrating the accompanying Nuptial Mass. The Sacrament of Marriage is celebrated by the bride and the groom.
The history of the sacrament is very interesting, btw. Priests didn’t start officiating until fairly late, both to emphasize that marriage was holy, not just a contract; and to make sure nothing unlawful and against anyone’s will was going on. For a long time, weddings were performed on the church steps…
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Damascus
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Well, I cant find my old Catechism from that church. Here’s the surprising thing, I really did take my baptism seriously, and thankfully the Catholic Church accepted it. So, It must be a sacrament even though I wish I had been baptised in a Catholic Church oh well.
The weddings I saw there were very nice, and in fact the pastor mentioned the wedding of Cana at my friends wedding. So naturally I assumed it was a sacrament in their eyes, now I find out that was not one. Go figure.
I have to admit, even though I should have known the Catechism of that church (I was ECLA BTW- not the ones who call the Pope Anti Christ!)
I never thought it was taken seriously. In fact, before I got baptised my pastor said that I could partake before my baptism, but I did not have to.
Then I saw many people that told me how it was not important that we take it because we dont need to take it in order to have Jesus inside us. Maybe they told me that to make me feel good since I did not take until I was baptised.
I was very confused by the whole experience, and my pastor was a nice man but got very angry with me when I asked him questions as I got more serious about things. He really meant well, and was nice but he told me to stop asking so many questions. The questions that really bothered him were did the early Christians worship like this? (his sermons were always about baseball) and why dont we have a crucifix? Is it wrong? (maybe some do but mine had a wooden cross and no corpus. And why dont we believe in saints? Or have the power to proclaim someone a saint? I had a ton more questions but those were the “innocent” ones at first. finally he did not meet with me or return my calls anymore.
The rest is a long story.
It was a good experience, as it was pivotal in my getting answers elsewhere.
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spauline
Guest
Dear Damascus, I pray that God bless you where you have been and are. I also would just like to point out that I didn’t mean to be accusatory, but just to point out the objective reality from the subjective, namely, that although Protestants tend to believe that they only have Baptism and Communion, in reality they usually have Baptism and Marriage, for anyone my baptize, not just priests, and, as pointed out earlier in this thread, it is the man and woman who confer marriage upon each other, and the sign of the sacrament is their very bodies. So it is comforting to know that Christ loves all His children so much, that even those who are partially separated from him in the heretical communities, if it is not their fault, Christ still feeds them grace through the fountains of Baptism and the Sacramental Union of Holy Marriage.
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NotWorthy
Guest
John Martignoni’s has done a simply WONDERFUL presentation on the Marriage and the Eucharist. It’s a 55 minutes presentation, but it’s very easy to listen to. He talks down to my level, which means about 99 9/10th% of you guys will be able to understand what he’s saying.
Sorry “On Fire”, you probably fit in the 1/10th of 1% category!!! :yup:
You can find his talk here:
Sorry “On Fire”, you probably fit in the 1/10th of 1% category!!! :yup:
You can find his talk here:
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lak611
Guest
In the Catholic Church, a deacon may also be the witness of the marriage if it is not a Nuptial Mass. Of course, if the wedding is part of a Mass, then a priest is needed.Dear Damascus, I pray that God bless you where you have been and are. I also would just like to point out that I didn’t mean to be accusatory, but just to point out the objective reality from the subjective, namely, that although Protestants tend to believe that they only have Baptism and Communion, in reality they usually have Baptism and Marriage, for anyone my baptize, not just priests, and, as pointed out earlier in this thread, it is the man and woman who confer marriage upon each other, and the sign of the sacrament is their very bodies. So it is comforting to know that Christ loves all His children so much, that even those who are partially separated from him in the heretical communities, if it is not their fault, Christ still feeds them grace through the fountains of Baptism and the Sacramental Union of Holy Marriage.
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spauline
Guest
Well, yes, I realize that ecclesiology is involved, for because it is sacred, the presence of a spiritual father is required in the Catholic communion. But my point was, even though, under normal circumstances, an ordained Catholic man needs to be present in the ceremony, still, from what I understand, it is not the priest or deacon who “confers” the Sacrament. Rather, the man and the woman confer it upon each other.
But thank you for your clarification, lak!
Blessings to you!
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