Marriage and baptism are not middle-class rites of passage. We need to make them easier

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reggieM

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In our case, marriage counselling meant two 20-minute conversations with our pastor. This is as it should be …

Working-class people and bohemian misfits like me are not community-minded. We loathe the notion of therapy, especially if it involves making small talk with people we don’t know about things that are very dear to our hearts. People with real jobs often work on Saturdays; they haven’t got time or money for couples’ weekend retreats to horse farms with Fr Dialogue.

Meanwhile, middle-class people enjoy being treated like (rather stupid) children. They like play-time and share-time and snack-time and loathe the idea of privacy; they enjoy shaking hands and holding hands, which is why their favourite parts of the new Mass are the Sign of Peace and the standing-up Paternoster. They take positive delight in these things for the same mysterious reasons that they enjoy working for those companies that require semi-annual “team-building exercises” – scavenger hunts and other pre-teen activities between mandatory presentations on LGBTQ sensitivity.

cnn.com/2017/08/04/health/exorcism-doctor/index.html
 
Are you equating te Sacrament of Baptism, and marriage with exorcism?
 
The story won’t show in my browser.

But, the only two sacraments work needs to be put in on for both beginners and old hands alike, are confession and confirmation. Is there such a thing as a penance or an absolution that brings you nearer to God? Is there Holy Spirit power and why?

If we have the vision to get people interested in these two they’ll want to do baptism, whatever it takes - and lo and behold all “classes” will turn out to be up to it. If we don’t have that vision, it’s not compulsory for them any more than for anyone else.

There is a case why couples should marry whether in a register office or elsewhere.
 
Roseeurekacross said:
Are you equating te Sacrament of Baptism, and marriage with exorcism?
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Although coincidentally, the article (the correct link above) does mention this for Baptism:
He supplied the salt and the chrism and a Latin pamphlet with the Exorcízo te and all the other forgotten glories of the Roman Rite; we brought the baby.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
The story won’t show in my browser.

But, the only two sacraments work needs to be put in on for beginners and old hands alike, are confession and confirmation. Is there such a thing as a penance or an absolution that brings you nearer to God? Is there Holy Spirit power and why?

If we have the vision to get people interested in these two they’ll want to do baptism, whatever it takes. If not, it’s not compulsory for them any more than for anyone else.

There is a case why couples should marry whether in a register office or elsewhere.
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Perhaps if you just go to the Catholic Herald catholicherald.co.uk and the story is for August 3rd - you could find it that way.
It’s somewhat lighthearted and references traditional Catholic practice where marriage and baptism was an easier process for people.
 
Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
The story won’t show in my browser.

But, the only two sacraments work needs to be put in on for both beginners and old hands alike, are confession and confirmation. Is there such a thing as a penance or an absolution that brings you nearer to God? Is there Holy Spirit power and why?

If we have the vision to get people interested in these two they’ll want to do baptism, whatever it takes - and lo and behold all “classes” will turn out to be up to it. If we don’t have that vision, it’s not compulsory for them any more than for anyone else.

There is a case why couples should marry whether in a register office or elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Some bishops in the US are permitting Confirmation to be provided at the same time as Baptism for infants now and not just adult converts.
 
Is it the norm for Pre-Cana to take 6 months now? In the 90s when we got married it seemed like most of the pre-Cana consisted of either one weekend (our pick), or maybe an hour a week for lik 4 to 6 weeks.

And no, middle-class people don’t universally “love” all that stuff the guy listed. I wasn’t big on the one weekend of pre-Cana we had to do. The monastery we went to was very pretty and we got to take a lovely walk through the grounds during couples’ free time…the Mass at the end was okay…the rest of the program was meh.
 
Have seen story now.

I agree decent pastors should know full well when parents and couples are already qualified, and be prepared to be flexible about not inflicting the company of random outsiders on them if they don’t want.

I don’t think that’s a middle or lower class thing. The discerning way is the truly classy way.

Discerning doesn’t take hoops. That’s a fallacy that has been introduced by the high-demand movements, and should be abolished, poste-haste, along with the high demand movements.
 
reggieM said:
Some bishops in the US are permitting Confirmation to be provided at the same time as Baptism for infants now and not just adult converts.
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Well I was done at age 9, preceded by about six 40-minute sessions at which I was content to be one of the quieter participants, at what I considered was past my bedtime.

I was quite interested to be told I was becoming a “soldier for Christ” but somehow no-one ever got round to telling me, decade by decade, what that meant. (The Pentecostals at least have tried! 😉 😉 😉 )

(For general readers’ benefit, I see that as being equipped for wholesome defence, as we wish everyone will be.)

The risk is, high demand movements come knocking on presbytery doors saying “we’ve come from God and the Pope to help your parishioners live out the value of their Confirmation”.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Is it the norm for Pre-Cana to take 6 months now? In the 90s when we got married it seemed like most of the pre-Cana consisted of either one weekend (our pick), or maybe an hour a week for lik 4 to 6 weeks.

And no, middle-class people don’t universally “love” all that stuff the guy listed. I wasn’t big on the one weekend of pre-Cana we had to do. The monastery we went to was very pretty and we got to take a lovely walk through the grounds during couples’ free time…the Mass at the end was okay…the rest of the program was meh.
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The norm in the US is that couples have to register for pre-Cana 6 months before the wedding. But the activities can be done in about 6 weeks.
In my diocese, couples have to take an Assessment Test - 150 questions, then do a weekend retreat, then have a day-long seminar. Then lots of other stuff.

I think the people who love all of that the most are the organizers, coordinators, volunteers, ministry people, and the leaders who want to stand at the microphone and talk about their wisdom and advice. I know at least one priest who doesn’t like it at all.

The victims … candidates, just have to deal with it.
 
Vic_Taltrees_UK said:
I was quite interested to be told I was becoming a “soldier for Christ” but somehow no-one ever got round to telling me, decade by decade, what that meant. (The Pentecostals at least have tried! 😉 😉 😉 )
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At one time here that was accompanied by a light slap on the cheek by the bishop, but eventually that was replaced by a hand-shake. Confirmation preparers often don’t use the term Soldier of Christ any more.

Those were the two things I looked forward to - the slap and being a soldier. So, maybe it’s best just to have it offered to infants as they do in the Eastern Rites.

I like the old Catechism explanation:

Q. 670. What is Confirmation?

A. Confirmation is a Sacrament through which we receive the Holy Ghost to make us strong and perfect Christians and soldiers of Jesus Christ.

Q. 673. Why are we called soldiers of Jesus Christ?

A. We are called soldiers of Jesus Christ to indicate how we must resist the attacks of our spiritual enemies and secure our victory over them by following and obeying Our Lord.

The new Catechism that doesn’t mention that term.
 
Seems to me that things are pretty “easy” now, including the fact that when couples indicate during the Pre-Marital Interview that they live at the same address, nary a flicker of hesitation nor reproving word seem to occur – not that there’s much to be done, but back in the day (and not that long ago) …
 
Tarpeian_Rock said:
Seems to me that things are pretty “easy” now, including the fact that when couples indicate during the Pre-Marital Interview that they live at the same address, nary a flicker of hesitation nor reproving word seem to occur – not that there’s much to be done, but back in the day (and not that long ago) …
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True. Nobody wants to ask “Have you received Communion in all of this time you have been living together”?

There is an assumption that “marriage will make it all better” but what about confessing past sins with a firm resolution of amendment?

Someone here said recently that 80% of Catholic couples in childbearing years use contraception … so I guess it’s all part of it.
 
I find it interesting that you mention Baptism & Marriage, which in my experience, in my diocese in Upstate NY, are among the easiest to prep for.

Aside from the FOCUS test (or whatever it is called now), couples get to pick what works best for them as far as Pre-Cana, from the options offered around the diocese.

Baptism prep varies from parish to parish, and a lot depends on whether or not the parents are regular church-goers or CEO’s. That said, Baptism is rarely denied, even when there is “no hope” of the child being raised int he faith.

The one Sacrament in my next of the woods that has become nothing but “hoop jumping” is our 2-year Confirmation program. We are trying to instill what should have been 7 years of instruction into a 2-year program. The teens (8th graders) coming in have no foundational catechesis. By that I mean most don’t know basic prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, Sign of the Cross), do not know how to use a Bible, do not know the precepts of the Church, etc.

So, we have this curriculum that we need to teach, but it is based on these kids having a foundation. Sadly, they are just not capable of learning, with any depth, what is being asked of them.

There are many who will wring their hands and complain about the lack of catechesis, and then those who complain about “hoop jumping” or “class distinction” (not something I have ever seen before until this thread! :eek:) but in the end, where are they? Are they in the trenches, doing the impossible, with little in the way of resources or appreciation? Or are they sitting in pews pointing fingers?

I know what the answer is in my diocese, and I am willing to bet the farm it is pretty much the same everywhere else in the US.:rolleyes:
 
Oneofthewomen said:
There are many who will wring their hands and complain about the lack of catechesis, and then those who complain about “hoop jumping” or “class distinction” (not something I have ever seen before until this thread! :eek:) but in the end, where are they? Are they in the trenches, doing the impossible, with little in the way of resources or appreciation? Or are they sitting in pews pointing fingers?
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In my experience, some who are in the trenches do complain. Not everyone there is happy about the situation.

I think the focus of the essay in the OP was with regards to administrative processes for Marriage and Baptism. It doesn’t really touch on the issue of catechesis.

In my view, I think more dioceses will pick up the trend of moving Confirmation as a sacrament of initiation to be offered along with Baptism with infants. That would eliminate the children from families who are disinterested in catechesis.

As for resources and appreciation - I don’t know, but I think it depends on your diocese, bishop, pastor, associates – and the nature of your parish itself.

I don’t think anybody was showing a lack of gratitude to anyone here, but I’ll certainly offer my appreciation and thanks to you for your volunteer efforts for the Church.
 
Is there less trust in the intentions of those seeking these sacraments? I and many of my classmates were only baptised in order to get us in to the Catholic School so I can understand why they want to be more certain of the parents faith even if I don’t agree with the length of some of these programs
 
ConfusedLucy said:
Is there less trust in the intentions of those seeking these sacraments? I and many of my classmates were only baptised in order to get us in to the Catholic School so I can understand why they want to be more certain of the parents faith even if I don’t agree with the length of some of these programs
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Yes, that’s a good point.
I agree that there is less trust.
 
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