Marriage and intimacy

[Secant]

Having read multiple threads on this, a close friend of mine and I were debating a not so hypothetical situation that he and his wife have. Frankly, she hates marital relations. When they got married, she was hoping that the required physical intimacy would be all it was cracked up to be and has since found it to be, “torture, the worst thing one person can do to another in the name of love.” She says that is it painful, degrading, and disgusting. They have a child and have agreed to try for another in two months (spacing for her health), but outside of trying for children, she wants him to go without, which is driving him crazy. He has trouble waiting the on average 25 days until her infertile times (with STM-NFP, except without the cervical checks due to the extreme pain they cause her) for only six days, during which she claims it hurts even more. So now he feels guilty any time he initiates the conjugal act because the pain leaves her in tears and near retching, and she feels guilty every time he asks and she refuses because she worries about what St. Paul said about not denying each other. They have seen a priest who told them that their situation was a problem and they’d have to fix it, without any further guidance. They have seen an OB-GYN who said there is nothing wrong with her. They have seen a psychiatrist (not catholic-the closest catholic one they have heard of is 11 hours away and not within their ability to see) who said the issue was that she needed to grow up and not be so “Puritan,” and learn to self please to better prepare for her husband, obviously against Catholic teaching. They both feel that they are in a permanent state of sin. What can they do?

 

[pensmama87]

They need second (or third, or fourth) opinions from competent medical and psychological professionals.

Unfortunately, practitioners of women’s health have the poor reputation of thinking many women’s problems, especially regarding sex drive and pain, to be imaginary, a holdover from the era where women were widely believed to be hysterical and weak. One OB is not enough for the door to be closed on medical issues, especially since she (according to her husband) was looking forward to marital relations before getting married.

 

[Secant]

I said one OB for simplicity’s sake. They’ve been to three, who all say the same thing. And she confirms what he said about looking forward to being married and the duties therein.

 

[pensmama87]

Were they regular OBs or did they specialize in pelvic pain or related issues? Did they all work in the same practice or for the same health/hospital system? Can they use Angie’s List or another service provider search to find someone else? There are sexologists who specialize in the treatment of sexual dysfunction. That’s probably who this woman would need to see.

Even if it is primarily psychological (you say one psychiatrist, did you mean one or more there, too?) there are still techniques or other things that can be tried medically. That might help in conjunction with therapy. A psychiatrist may not be the best option, either - they might be better off with a psychologist or licensed counselor. Finding one who will respect their values can occur even if the person is not Catholic or even Christian. If they are competent, they will respect Catholic values.

 

[Secant]

Yes, pensmama87, they’ve worked with three psych-something’s, one -ologist, one -iatrist, and one other - I don’t remember what he told me that one was. They’ve also seen four priests over the years, three who gave essentially no advice and one who suggested they try a Josephite marriage.

The OB’s were the only ones available without significant time, money, and travel requirements (that they both agree they cannot afford -according to him). There was one sexologist they thought about seeing who is Catholic, but upon investigating, they found that he does not have a valid office and no hospital or medical professional in his county knows who he is or would give him privileges to use their facilities.

I will suggest Angie’s list, but where we both live, all communities within 100 miles make up a phone book of less than a page per mile. I doubt they can recommend any more than we can easily find by walking down Main Street.

 

[Boy_Wonder]

Unless your friend is a saint or a glutton for punishment, I’d say that marriage is doomed. When a wife withholds sex, it’s a painful nonstop rejection. If she truly believes that marital sex is “degrading and disgusting” she is hurting and demoralizing her husband. Passive aggression is a terrible thing. It’s a nasty power ploy and very selfish.

He should threaten to leave and take their child with him if she doesn’t get therapy and change her attitude and behavior immediately. But I’ll go back to my original position and reiterate that this marriage is doomed and it’s largely her doing.

A Josephite marriage is NOT a holy marriage. It’s a fearful quasi-marriage in which one or both spouses are sadly inadequate human beings. Married sex is not dirty or something to be minimized. A whiff of this Jansenist nonsense still infects the Church. Those who use the guise of holiness to justify their own fear, selfishness, and sexual dysfunction are doing God, the marriage, their spouse and themselves a HUGE disservice.

 

[ignatius777]

Having read multiple threads on this, a close friend of mine and I were debating a not so hypothetical situation that he and his wife have. Frankly, she hates marital relations. When they got married, she was hoping that the required physical intimacy would be all it was cracked up to be and has since found it to be, “torture, the worst thing one person can do to another in the name of love.” She says that is it painful, degrading, and disgusting. They have a child and have agreed to try for another in two months (spacing for her health), but outside of trying for children, she wants him to go without, which is driving him crazy. He has trouble waiting the on average 25 days until her infertile times (with STM-NFP, except without the cervical checks due to the extreme pain they cause her) for only six days, during which she claims it hurts even more. So now he feels guilty any time he initiates the conjugal act because the pain leaves her in tears and near retching, and she feels guilty every time he asks and she refuses because she worries about what St. Paul said about not denying each other. They have seen a priest who told them that their situation was a problem and they’d have to fix it, without any further guidance. They have seen an OB-GYN who said there is nothing wrong with her. They have seen a psychiatrist (not catholic-the closest catholic one they have heard of is 11 hours away and not within their ability to see) who said the issue was that she needed to grow up and not be so “Puritan,” and learn to self please to better prepare for her husband, obviously against Catholic teaching. They both feel that they are in a permanent state of sin. What can they do?

It appears as though there is some deep psychological/physical problems here. She needs to see a good psychiatrist and/or a doctor who might be able to figure out whats happening with her and the noted pain. To describe marital intimacy as “degrading and disgusting” is indicative of a serious psychological problem.

 

[Isca]

I would suggest that your friend and his wife maybe need to see a psychosexual counsellor. Your friend will also need to take part in any treatment programmes, of course - it’s not just the wife’s ‘problem’ and no-one knows the dynamics of anyone else’s intimate relationships.

Sounds like the people she has seen so far have been useless and may have harmed her even more - since when did a psychiatrist think it was appropriate to tell someone to ‘grow up’ when that person is so distressed? Suggest to your friend that he read up about vaginismus. It’s not uncommon and has both physical and psychological causes.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Unless your friend is a saint or a glutton for punishment, I’d say that marriage is doomed. When a wife withholds sex, it’s a painful nonstop rejection. If she truly believes that marital sex is “degrading and disgusting” she is hurting and demoralizing her husband. Passive aggression is a terrible thing. It’s a nasty power ploy and very selfish.

He should threaten to leave and take their child with him if she doesn’t get therapy and change her attitude and behavior immediately. But I’ll go back to my original position and reiterate that this marriage is doomed and it’s largely her doing.

A Josephite marriage is NOT a holy marriage. It’s a fearful quasi-marriage in which one or both spouses are sadly inadequate human beings. Married sex is not dirty or something to be minimized. A whiff of this Jansenist nonsense still infects the Church. Those who use the guise of holiness to justify their own fear, selfishness, and sexual dysfunction are doing God, the marriage, their spouse and themselves a HUGE disservice.

She also said it was painful. It hurts her to check her mucus. That isn’t normal and she can’t help that it is painful. It isn’t like she did it once and said, “never again.” Being in pain isn’t selfish.

 

[nodito]

There are people with unusual chronic illnesses that go years without getting a correct diagnosis. Then when they finally find the right specialist it is like a weight is lifted. I would urge these people to keep searching for a professional to help. Perhaps they could start by contacting the Pope Paul VI Institute for reccommendations. If they read something on the internet that resonates, I’d also urge them to write letters to specialists or try calling on the phone. Even if they are not able to physically visit a specialist in another city or state, it may be helpful to have a phone consultation.

It is incredibly abnormal for cervical checks to be painful. Likewise, sex is not “disgusting,” and to me this suggests either a skewed understanding of sex or a physical problem that is producing pain and, by extension, disgust that her husband would want her to endure it.

Sex is an important part of marriage and they owe it to each other to continue seeking answers.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

A Josephite marriage is NOT a holy marriage. It’s a fearful quasi-marriage in which one or both spouses are sadly inadequate human beings. Married sex is not dirty or something to be minimized. A whiff of this Jansenist nonsense still infects the Church. Those who use the guise of holiness to justify their own fear, selfishness, and sexual dysfunction are doing God, the marriage, their spouse and themselves a HUGE disservice.

Well, in fairness, a true Josephite marriage (if I understand it correctly) is one in which both spouses voluntarily agree to abstain in order to give themselves more fully to prayer. The situation that the OP describes would not and could not be a Josephite marriage because at least one of the spouses here desires marital relations, but the other spouse cannot and/or will not engage in relations, at least not on a regular basis. And even in a true Josephite marriage, if one of the spouses changes his or her mind and decides to once again resume a normal, sexual married life, then the couple must do so.

 

[Secant]

Actually, it seems there is some misunderstanding. First, the wife is not denying her husband intimacy, so much as his guilt in forcing it on her. She permits intimacy during her infertile period, but desires vocally and in manner (according to him) that it were not the case because of the pain. In addition, she is not likely to be using this as a “passive-aggressive power ploy” since she has volunteered (and undergone) exploratory surgery as recommended by one of the OB’s to fix this problem, even though it didn’t work. He says she truly wishes this weren’t the case and is consumed with guilt over it.

Also, to suggest divorce seems incredibly not Catholic, since Catholics know that divorce is not an option. An annulment seems highly unlikely to me if she entered in with the right intentions and a child raised by a single parent has been statistically shown to have greater issues, something no parent wants for their child. Besides, to threaten divorce is to turn this into a power play, and a high stakes game of chicken. That’s no way to try to save a marriage.

 

[underacloud]

She says that is it painful, degrading, and disgusting.

This seems to be two separate issues. Or it could be one issue causing the other.

Why does she think it is degrading and disgusting? As noted, perhaps she just needs to be less of a puritan? On the other hand perhaps the pain makes her view sex very negatively?

Or perhaps her negative view of sex is the main cause of the pain, since her body does not properly prepare itself for sex. If multiple OBGYNs have ruled out physical issues, then perhaps she needs to explore the psychological issues further.

Since they have no definitive answers in either direction, they should just keep exploring both avenues for now.

If this is such a serious issue for them, is an 11-hour trip such an inconvenience?

Sex is an important part of marriage and they owe it to each other to continue seeking answers.

Yes.

 

[Secant]

He says yes it is, not that I can disagree with his reasons. That have one child who is too small to be without her mom for more than a few hours and air travel is not an option for financial reasons. Also, he can’t really afford a minimum of three days without pay (he has to schedule all his vacation days by Jan 15 every year) every time she needs to see a doctor that isn’t covered by their insurance, so she would have to do this solo, while traveling 1500 miles round trip with an infant.

Upon collaboration with her, she also points out that at $500 a trip between gas, food, and hotels, not even counting the doctors bills, it would quickly reach beyond their financial means.

 

[underacloud]

He says yes it is, not that I can disagree with his reasons. That have one child who is too small to be without her mom for more than a few hours and air travel is not an option for financial reasons. Also, he can’t really afford a minimum of three days without pay (he has to schedule all his vacation days by Jan 15 every year) every time she needs to see a doctor that isn’t covered by their insurance, so she would have to do this solo, while traveling 1500 miles round trip with an infant.

Upon collaboration with her, she also points out that at $500 a trip between gas, food, and hotels, not even counting the doctors bills, it would quickly reach beyond their financial means.

Oh well, if it’s all put in the “too hard basket”, maybe it’s not as big an issue for them as they say.

 

[nodito]

He says yes it is, not that I can disagree with his reasons. That have one child who is too small to be without her mom for more than a few hours and air travel is not an option for financial reasons. Also, he can’t really afford a minimum of three days without pay (he has to schedule all his vacation days by Jan 15 every year) every time she needs to see a doctor that isn’t covered by their insurance, so she would have to do this solo, while traveling 1500 miles round trip with an infant.

Upon collaboration with her, she also points out that at $500 a trip between gas, food, and hotels, not even counting the doctors bills, it would quickly reach beyond their financial means.

Then I’d reiterate my advice: phone consulations and e-mail.

 

[fpt]

Having read multiple threads on this, a close friend of mine and I were debating a not so hypothetical situation that he and his wife have. Frankly, she hates marital relations. When they got married, she was hoping that the required physical intimacy would be all it was cracked up to be and has since found it to be, “torture, the worst thing one person can do to another in the name of love.” She says that is it painful, degrading, and disgusting. They have a child and have agreed to try for another in two months (spacing for her health), but outside of trying for children, she wants him to go without, which is driving him crazy. He has trouble waiting the on average 25 days until her infertile times (with STM-NFP, except without the cervical checks due to the extreme pain they cause her) for only six days, during which she claims it hurts even more. So now he feels guilty any time he initiates the conjugal act because the pain leaves her in tears and near retching, and she feels guilty every time he asks and she refuses because she worries about what St. Paul said about not denying each other. They have seen a priest who told them that their situation was a problem and they’d have to fix it, without any further guidance. They have seen an OB-GYN who said there is nothing wrong with her. They have seen a psychiatrist (not catholic-the closest catholic one they have heard of is 11 hours away and not within their ability to see) who said the issue was that she needed to grow up and not be so “Puritan,” and learn to self please to better prepare for her husband, obviously against Catholic teaching. They both feel that they are in a permanent state of sin. What can they do?

What are the causes and the factors of this situation?

In my humble opinion, the wife should to discuss with catholic specialists of different disciplines in order to get information about the issues of the morality of the conjugal act (her rights, her obligations and her duties, and his rights, his obligations, his duties as conjugal lover in her favor), on the morality of different aspects linked to modus operandi of this act of love, and on her own sexual troubles. She should consult* some catholic priests, some catholic theologians, some catholic philosophers, some catholic canon lawyers, some catholic general physicians, some catholic psychiatrists, some catholic psychologists, some catholic psychoanalysts, some catholic sexologists, some catholic midwifes* in order to identify:

1. the sources of her sexual troubles and thus to try the spiritual and religious treatments, *the psychological treatments, the psychical treatments, the mental treatments, the physical treatments and the medical treatments

1. the morality of acts that he can practice* on her body* during the session of the conjugal act, like the foreplay (on her secundary erogenous zones) and like the sexual preliminaries ( on her primary erogenous zones) by touching, by kissing, by licking, by sucking, by massaging and by caressing.

As husband, during the session of the conjugal act, he has the moral obligation of means of preparing his wife, in the human fashion, with her sexual cooperation,* in order to lead the union of bodies*. She has the moral obligation of means of trying to change her mind and her views concerning the union of bodies and all the corollaries. She has the moral obligation of means of *allowing to her husband of preparing her sexed body and her sexual organs for the union of bodies. *The foreplay and the sexual foreplay on her body are so important and essential : a right for her to receive and a right for him to give.

 

[fpt]

Having read multiple threads on this, a close friend of mine and I were debating a not so hypothetical situation that he and his wife have. Frankly, she hates marital relations. When they got married, she was hoping that the required physical intimacy would be all it was cracked up to be and has since found it to be, “torture, the worst thing one person can do to another in the name of love.” She says that is it painful, degrading, and disgusting. They have a child and have agreed to try for another in two months (spacing for her health), but outside of trying for children, she wants him to go without, which is driving him crazy. He has trouble waiting the on average 25 days until her infertile times (with STM-NFP, except without the cervical checks due to the extreme pain they cause her) for only six days, during which she claims it hurts even more. So now he feels guilty any time he initiates the conjugal act because the pain leaves her in tears and near retching, and she feels guilty every time he asks and she refuses because she worries about what St. Paul said about not denying each other. They have seen a priest who told them that their situation was a problem and they’d have to fix it, without any further guidance. They have seen an OB-GYN who said there is nothing wrong with her. They have seen a psychiatrist (not catholic-the closest catholic one they have heard of is 11 hours away and not within their ability to see) who said the issue was that s**he needed to grow up and not be so “Puritan,” and learn to self please to better prepare for her husband, obviously against Catholic teaching. **

What is it? What does it mean?

Before the union of bodies, the mental, psychological, psychical and affective foreplay are useful anf moral. She has the moral right to have conjugal sexual thoughts for preparing her heart, her body and her soul to the conjugal union of bodies: she has the right to have some erotic fantasies that respect the union of bodies. She can prepare her body and her being by baths, by oils and co…, by conjugal erotic talks with her husband, by conjugal sexual ideas… Many things are morally okay during the session of the conjugal act.

 

[Secant]

FTP,

The “grow up and not be so Puritan” was how my friend described what the psychiatrist said. The reference to self-pleasing is polite and non-explicit speech for the grave matter of solo activity or, if I must be so blunt, masturbation. I dislike speaking so bluntly on a public forum that allows 13 year olds.

She has consulted multiple Catholic priests. As for the canon lawyers, physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists, psychoanalysts, sexologists,midwives (do we still have midwives in this day and age or do you mean OB-GYNs, I’m a mom myself and have never heard of a midwife except in history books), et al, where does she go to find them in a distinctly not Catholic (or even well populated) area? How do you find them and is there even such a thing as a doctor who will phone consult?

 

[pensmama87]

FTP,

The “grow up and not be so Puritan” was how my friend described what the psychiatrist said. The reference to self-pleasing is polite and non-explicit speech for the grave matter of solo activity or, if I must be so blunt, masturbation. I dislike speaking so bluntly on a public forum that allows 13 year olds.

She has consulted multiple Catholic priests. As for the canon lawyers, physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists, psychoanalysts, sexologists,midwives (do we still have midwives in this day and age or do you mean OB-GYNs, I’m a mom myself and have never heard of a midwife except in history books), et al, where does she go to find them in a distinctly not Catholic (or even well populated) area? How do you find them and is there even such a thing as a doctor who will phone consult?

:ehh:

This might explain a big part of the problem. Yes, there are midwives. They’ve actually become very popular for normal gynecological care and low-risk pregnancies and births in some areas of the country. Both of my children were delivered by midwives, who were licensed by the state and have extensive documented medical training.

Absolutely there are professionals in all fields who do phone consults if the need arises, though eventually they may request an in-person evaluation. If you live in an exceptionally rural area, I wouldn’t be surprised if providers in the nearest mid-to-large size city regularly offer that to people who live in your area. One can always call and ask and mention that transportation is a hardship.

The Pastoral Solutions Institute is one counseling practice I know of that works with a lot of clients by phone or Skype. I have seen a few counselors personally who were willing to do phone appointments when it was not possible to meet in person.

Seriously, have your friend check online and see who their insurance company’s approved providers are to start (since most companies have a pretty big region), and consult Google. In a rural, remote area, I am not surprised at all that there are few options and that they all say the same thing, which could very well be wrong. When it comes to rare or weird diseases or conditions, people often find specialists across the country or even internationally to find them, even if they live in a densely populated area with more access to services.

It could be like underacloud says and they are just resigned to live with it, and if that’s what they’ve decided to do, well, OK, nothing we can say can change that. But I think they’re far from the point where they decide to give up on it.