Marriage and Moral Disagreements (with a concrete example)

[mrbean007]

Hi there. I have a question about marriage and moral disagreements between spouses.

Let’s say that, hypothetically, a husband and a wife disagree about a moral issue. A husband thinks that they have a moral imperative to do something, while the wife things they have a moral imperative to act in the opposite way. The hypothetical becomes more interesting when you consider the question of headship and the husband’s role as the leader (many Catholics disagree on how precisely this is to be applied.) We’ll assume that both spouses are baptized Catholics.

To fill in the hypothetical with some real data, let’s assume the following:

A man marries a woman who has a gay best friend. The husband agrees with the Church that acting on homosexual impulses is wrong, whereas his wife believes the opposite, and in loving her best friend, has been lead to believe that her best friend’s lifestyle should be accepted. We won’t consider whether or not they should have married in the first place (that’s a separate issue deserving of another thread; we’ll assume that for better or for worst, they’ve already tied the knot.)

They have children. The husband wants to teach their kids what the Church teaches, whereas the wife wants to teach them that they should embrace homosexual behavior. How do they navigate this very difficult disagreement?

In this case, we’ll assume that the wife believes that the Church’s teaching is hateful and wrong, and that a proper moral attitude is to assert that the acceptance of homosexual behavior is ok. Thus, though her conscience in the eyes of the Church is improperly informed, she nevertheless, for various reasons, with all the right intentions, believes with all of her heart that what the husband believes is wrong, and that she has a moral duty to pass on her beliefs to her children.

What are the husband’s obligations in this matter? One possible solution I see is that the husband would be bound to obey the Church and to teach his children that deliberately acting on a homosexual impulse is wrong, and he would do so. However, in keeping with respecting his wife as a person with dignity, he would also respect his wife’s conscience in the matter, and provided that they maintained an ongoing dialog rooted in love and mutual respect, he wouldn’t try to force her to stop teaching their children what she believes (though he would not condone it and would pray fervently for her conversion.)

The issue becomes more muddied when we step away from a simple discussion of morals and begin to consider what parts of her gay best friend’s life should be visible to their children and which shouldn’t, which would be a constant matter of difficult decision making between the two. We’ll assume that her gay best friend is an important part of the lives of both the husband and the wife and must be a part of their family in at least some way.

I hesitate to throw this out there, with all of the strong emotions out there regarding homosexuality and conflicting views about the roles of husbands and wives, but I’m giving it a chance… Thoughts?

 

[Xantippe]

Hi there. I have a question about marriage and moral disagreements between spouses.

Let’s say that, hypothetically, a husband and a wife disagree about a moral issue. A husband thinks that they have a moral imperative to do something, while the wife things they have a moral imperative to act in the opposite way. The hypothetical becomes more interesting when you consider the question of headship and the husband’s role as the leader (many Catholics disagree on how precisely this is to be applied.) We’ll assume that both spouses are baptized Catholics.

To fill in the hypothetical with some real data, let’s assume the following:

A man marries a woman who has a gay best friend. The husband agrees with the Church that acting on homosexual impulses is wrong, whereas his wife believes the opposite, and in loving her best friend, has been lead to believe that her best friend’s lifestyle should be accepted. We won’t consider whether or not they should have married in the first place (that’s a separate issue deserving of another thread; we’ll assume that for better or for worst, they’ve already tied the knot.)

They have children. The husband wants to teach their kids what the Church teaches, whereas the wife wants to teach them that they should embrace homosexual behavior. How do they navigate this very difficult disagreement?

In this case, we’ll assume that the wife believes that the Church’s teaching is hateful and wrong, and that a proper moral attitude is to assert that the acceptance of homosexual behavior is ok. Thus, though her conscience in the eyes of the Church is improperly informed, she nevertheless, for various reasons, with all the right intentions, believes with all of her heart that what the husband believes is wrong, and that she has a moral duty to pass on her beliefs to her children.

What are the husband’s obligations in this matter? One possible solution I see is that the husband would be bound to obey the Church and to teach his children that deliberately acting on a homosexual impulse is wrong, and he would do so. However, in keeping with respecting his wife as a person with dignity, he would also respect his wife’s conscience in the matter, and provided that they maintained an ongoing dialog rooted in love and mutual respect, he wouldn’t try to force her to stop teaching their children what she believes (though he would not condone it and would pray fervently for her conversion.)

The issue becomes more muddied when we step away from a simple discussion of morals and begin to consider what parts of her gay best friend’s life should be visible to their children and which shouldn’t, which would be a constant matter of difficult decision making between the two. We’ll assume that her gay best friend is an important part of the lives of both the husband and the wife and must be a part of their family in at least some way.

I hesitate to throw this out there, with all of the strong emotions out there regarding homosexuality and conflicting views about the roles of husbands and wives, but I’m giving it a chance… Thoughts?

Both husband and wife really screwed up, didn’t they?

This sounded reasonable:

“One possible solution I see is that the husband would be bound to obey the Church and to teach his children that deliberately acting on a homosexual impulse is wrong, and he would do so. However, in keeping with respecting his wife as a person with dignity, he would also respect his wife’s conscience in the matter, and provided that they maintained an ongoing dialog rooted in love and mutual respect, he wouldn’t try to force her to stop teaching their children what she believes (though he would not condone it and would pray fervently for her conversion.)”

I would add that the husband should also encourage compassion and love toward people with same sex attraction, so that it wouldn’t be all judgy-judgy from his side and love-love from his wife’s side. That would definitely be a recipe for failure for him. “We can love people but not always agree with everything they do or say,” is not a bad lesson for the kids to learn, especially if mom is non-Catholic.

“The issue becomes more muddied when we step away from a simple discussion of morals and begin to consider what parts of her gay best friend’s life should be visible to their children and which shouldn’t, which would be a constant matter of difficult decision making between the two.”

Depends on age. Many families have similar issues with grandma’s boyfriend/third husband. This is not a unique issue. (I know a family where the 30ish daughter probably still doesn’t realize that her deceased grandma had been married three times, twice outside the church and had become a Jehovah’s Witness. Not the best way to deal with the issue, but sometimes one doesn’t get around to mentioning sensitive stuff like that.)

 

[fencersmother]

One key element which you left out… how old are these hypothetical children? If they are very young, it makes no difference. If they are teens or preteens, it could make a huge difference.

 

[Xantippe]

Also, if the kids are small and the gay friend has no kids, there’s a big chance that the wife and the gay friend will drift apart as they have less in common. This happens all the time to parents and non-parents.

I suspect that this will not be the biggest issue that this hypothetical couple struggles with.

 

[underacloud]

This example is still not concrete enough to offer proper advice. There are so many issues that may be relevant, which are not immediately clear:

a) Is the husband clear on what the Church actually teaches, including that homosexual people are not to be subject to unjust discrimination? Will he provide a balanced and charitable view, or merely a judgemental perspective?

b) Is the wife actually looking to condone the behaviour, and present it to the children as a legitimate life choice, or merely wanting to retain a frienship on the basis that it’s not her place to judge? Is the wife clear on what the Church actually teaches?

c) What role will this homosexual person play in the lives of the family? How often will they see them? Will their lifestyle be discrete or obvious? Will they bring partners to family events?

Anyway, as Xantippe said, the “One possible solution…” suggested seems reasonable to me on a general level.

 

[EasterJoy]

Do we think this is some kind of an unusual situation?

One spouse believes in NFP, the other one doesn’t.

One thinks both spouses ought to have jobs that bring in money, while the other believes that children ought to have at least one parent as a primary caretaker before grade school starts.

One thinks their daughter ought to be on birth control, the other doesn’t.

One hopes their son will be a priest, the other will renounce the boy for even saying such a thing, because that kid is supposed to take over the family business.

One has changed their minds about whether or not gays ought to be able to marry because this spouse actually works with someone who is gay and who wants to marry, has worked for ten years in an office where everyone agrees, and goes to a parish where it is not at all clear that even the pastor agrees with the Church.

It is called “for better or worse,” folks. The chances are better than 50:50 that this will be you, at some time or another. Hang in there, communicate, and do your best. You’re in the same boat, and you’re in it for good. Try not to put bullets through the hull.

 

[mrbean007]

Both husband and wife really screwed up, didn’t they?

If it’s a comfort, this hypothetical situation really is a hypothetical situation. Such a marriage doesn’t exist (or, I’m sure it does somewhere, but not anywhere that I know of.)

I might start another thread (if I do, I’ll attach the two for context) about why I asked, but I’m not yet sure if I feel comfortable sharing the necessary background about my own spiritual brokenness (though I’ll say that extreme doubt as well as extreme scrupulosity and other things come into play.)

This sounded reasonable:

“One possible solution I see is that the husband would be bound to obey the Church and to teach his children that deliberately acting on a homosexual impulse is wrong, and he would do so. However, in keeping with respecting his wife as a person with dignity, he would also respect his wife’s conscience in the matter, and provided that they maintained an ongoing dialog rooted in love and mutual respect, he wouldn’t try to force her to stop teaching their children what she believes (though he would not condone it and would pray fervently for her conversion.)”

I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks so. I agree, this probably wouldn’t be the best marital situation to get into in the first place. Again, I may elaborate further on why I asked, but I’m still very uncomfortable sharing more personal background about myself.

I would add that the husband should also encourage compassion and love toward people with same sex attraction, so that it wouldn’t be all judgy-judgy from his side and love-love from his wife’s side. That would definitely be a recipe for failure for him. “We can love people but not always agree with everything they do or say,” is not a bad lesson for the kids to learn, especially if mom is non-Catholic.

Yes, I would teach this anyway. I’ve been through a lot, and while I agree with the Church and its teachings on human sexuality, I have the deepest love and respect for people with SSA, and have had gay friends in the past.

 

[mrbean007]

One key element which you left out… how old are these hypothetical children? If they are very young, it makes no difference. If they are teens or preteens, it could make a huge difference.

I couldn’t say, because they don’t exist Presumably, this would be from birth all the way through adulthood (assuming that the hypothetical wife’s position never changed (and you never marry someone assuming that they’ll someday change.)

 

[mrbean007]

Also, if the kids are small and the gay friend has no kids, there’s a big chance that the wife and the gay friend will drift apart as they have less in common. This happens all the time to parents and non-parents.

I suspect that this will not be the biggest issue that this hypothetical couple struggles with.

Probably not. The hypothetical wife and friend are extremely close, have been since childhood, and have even lived together. They lean on each other for love and support. Even though hypothetical husband would take on a lot of this role, the wife would still very much love her friend and want him to be an active part of their lives.

Also, hypothetical husband loves her friend as well, and would be devastated if he couldn’t be friends with him as well.

 

[underacloud]

I may elaborate further on why I asked, but I’m still very uncomfortable sharing more personal background about myself.

You are safely anonymous here. No reason to hold back.

 

[mrbean007]

This example is still not concrete enough to offer proper advice. There are so many issues that may be relevant, which are not immediately clear:

Sorry, I’ll try to elaborate further on each of your questions.

a) Is the husband clear on what the Church actually teaches, including that homosexual people are not to be subject to unjust discrimination? Will he provide a balanced and charitable view, or merely a judgemental perspective?

Yes, he knows what the Church teaches, probably better than a lot of Catholics. There are a few reasons for this (including lots of scrupulosity in the past, and still some in the present.)

And yes, he has nothing but the deepest love and respect for all people. He believes that we’re all sinners, and that we’re all deserving of love and respect.

b) Is the wife actually looking to condone the behaviour, and present it to the children as a legitimate life choice, or merely wanting to retain a frienship on the basis that it’s not her place to judge? Is the wife clear on what the Church actually teaches?

The wife believes that there’s nothing wrong with the behavior, and further she believes that it’s wrong to tell someone who’s gay that they can’t be with someone. She knows that the Church comdemns homosexuality, but her stance is that no religion is perfect (though she tries in her own way to be a faithful Catholic, and I don’t think she really grasps the importance of papal infallibility, the magisterium, etc.)

c) What role will this homosexual person play in the lives of the family? How often will they see them? Will their lifestyle be discrete or obvious? Will they bring partners to family events?

He’ll probably play a large role in their lives, and yes, most likely his friend will bring whichever partner he’s with to family events.

 

[mrbean007]

Do we think this is some kind of an unusual situation?
It is called “for better or worse,” folks. The chances are better than 50:50 that this will be you, at some time or another. Hang in there, communicate, and do your best. You’re in the same boat, and you’re in it for good. Try not to put bullets through the hull.

Yes, I agree with this. And I’d further add that it’s very difficult for someone like myself to find the kind of spouse that would make agreement about most moral issues easy. I’ll try to elaborate more on why, but it’s both personal and very difficult for me to articulate.

 

[mrbean007]

You are safely anonymous here. No reason to hold back.

I’m thinking about it. I’ll try. For one thing, it’s just very difficult for me to express what’s in my heart and on my mind. And even though it’s anonymous, I’m still uneasy sharing deeply personal struggles and beliefs, because I’ve seen some people (not necessarily in these forums) eviscerated. Even if nobody ever knows who you are, when that happens, something inside of you dies.

 

[ClearWater]

I’m thinking about it. I’ll try. For one thing, it’s just very difficult for me to express what’s in my heart and on my mind. And even though it’s anonymous, I’m still uneasy sharing deeply personal struggles and beliefs, because I’ve seen some people (not necessarily in these forums) eviscerated. Even if nobody ever knows who you are, when that happens, something inside of you dies.

Yeah, it happens. The moderators here try to prevent it, but sometimes, it happens even so.

The other option is to talk to people who would be open to listening, more understanding and less judgemental, directly, through posting them individually.

 

[underacloud]

He’ll probably play a large role in their lives, and yes, most likely his friend will bring whichever partner he’s with to family events.

This is where, on a practical level, the couple need to discuss what will happen. Some gay people might bring a partner to an event and merely act as friends or roommates, while others might act clearly as a couple. I think the two apporaches (noting there can be in-between ground too) require different responses; different “explanations” to the children, again depending on their ages.

Rest assured that whatever the couple does, the children will be exposed to homosexuallity anyway, and will come to see that secular society now in general does not condemn it. What the couple (or each spouse) chooses to say is difficult.

I’m thinking about it. I’ll try. For one thing, it’s just very difficult for me to express what’s in my heart and on my mind. And even though it’s anonymous, I’m still uneasy sharing deeply personal struggles and beliefs, because I’ve seen some people (not necessarily in these forums) eviscerated. Even if nobody ever knows who you are, when that happens, something inside of you dies.

Understandable. And people do get all manner of responses here, so it can be confronting. But I’d suggest the only people who really get eviscerated are those that post pretty inflamatory comments. Otherwise, the balance of responses will generally be pretty reasonable and respectful.

 

[mrbean007]

This is where, on a practical level, the couple need to discuss what will happen. Some gay people might bring a partner to an event and merely act as friends or roommates, while others might act clearly as a couple. I think the two apporaches (noting there can be in-between ground too) require different responses; different “explanations” to the children, again depending on their ages.

Rest assured that whatever the couple does, the children will be exposed to homosexuallity anyway, and will come to see that secular society now in general does not condemn it. What the couple (or each spouse) chooses to say is difficult.

Yes, I agree with this.

Understandable. And people do get all manner of responses here, so it can be confronting. But I’d suggest the only people who really get eviscerated are those that post pretty inflamatory comments. Otherwise, the balance of responses will generally be pretty reasonable and respectful.

I have been greatly encouraged by the responses I’ve received so far. I’m still scared, but I might make an attempt tomorrow when I have more time. Have to collect my thoughts first. My mind and my soul are a minefield of anxiety and contradictions.

 

[Xantippe]

If this is you,

1. If you aren’t married and have no children or prospective children, move on or continue chastely dating until you’ve hammered out a modus vivendi. There will be many other such issues.
2. If you are married, follow the advice in the thread.
3. If you aren’t married, but your intended is pregnant or you have a child together, seek in-real-life counsel and don’t rush into marriage.

“Hypothetical” treatments of real situation are problematic, because the asker often doesn’t make it clear where they are in the process–have they already done it or are they thinking about doing it? The advice is going to be radically different depending on whether or not the asker is already in the soup or is preparing to jump in.

Best wishes!

 

[marymary1975]

Sorry, I’ll try to elaborate further on each of your questions.

Yes, he knows what the Church teaches, probably better than a lot of Catholics. There are a few reasons for this (including lots of scrupulosity in the past, and still some in the present.)

And yes, he has nothing but the deepest love and respect for all people. He believes that we’re all sinners, and that we’re all deserving of love and respect.

The wife believes that there’s nothing wrong with the behavior, and further she believes that it’s wrong to tell someone who’s gay that they can’t be with someone. She knows that the Church comdemns homosexuality, but her stance is that no religion is perfect (though she tries in her own way to be a faithful Catholic, and I don’t think she really grasps the importance of papal infallibility, the magisterium, etc.)

He’ll probably play a large role in their lives, and yes, most likely his friend will bring whichever partner he’s with to family events.

I think the biggest part of the problem is that the wife does not know properly the church teaching regarding the issue. I think first the husband needs to talk with her…and I repeat talk in a respectful way…and explain to her that she is not right, that the church teaching is not hateful and then proceed to explain the actual teaching. That the church believes in the dignity and respect of all humans includingbthose with SSA. That we have to be compassionate. That SS attraction is a temptation that the problem is acting on it. That being compassionate and loving someone does not mean that we have to accept when an action is wrong. that there is right and wrong and we have a duty of fraternal correction and we have to point out wrong actions. Maybe trying that would be a good idea in the first place because it is clear that she does not know the right teaching.

 

[rcwitness]

I believe we are called to be kind, hospitable and friendly with everyone. The line, for me as head of the household, would be this:

As long as they are in my house, they will not kiss or speak about homosexual relations.

My children will only be at their house if accompanied by myself/ or wife.

They are not to encourage their lifestyle on my children, or relations would have to be limited.

As for my wife, she would receive ALOT of debate with me and have to provide an answer for her stance.

 

[Xantippe]

As for my wife, she would receive ALOT of debate with me and have to provide an answer for her stance.

Sounds fun.