Marriage and prenuptual agreements?

[Lisa4Catholics]

Does this not invalidate the marriage if you are preparing for divorce from the get go?Thoughts?:ehh:

 

[Karin]

Why would it invalidate the marriage?

Not all pre-nups are made with the thinking that I am going to get divorced one day…I now when I made my current DH sign one that is not what I was thinking.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Why would it invalidate the marriage?

Not all pre-nups are made with the thinking that I am going to get divorced one day…I now when I made my current DH sign one that is not what I was thinking.

Well I thought prenupts werein “case” of divorce?

 

[thistle]

A pre-nuptual agreement (which seems to be popular in America but no place else) is simply a divorce/separation agreement in advance and frankly I don’t think it appropriate for Catholics to enter into such agreements.

 

[Karin]

Lisa4Catholics:

Well I thought prenupts werein “case” of divorce?

When I had my pre-nup drawn up the thinking behind it was I was protecting assests that I wanted my children(current and future) to have.** My will restates these things also.**

 

[thistle]

Karin:

When I had my pre-nup drawn up the thinking behind it was I was protecting assests that I wanted my children(current and future) to have.** My will restates these things also.**

Protecting them from whom. It can only be protecting them from your husband? Right?

 

[Karin]

thistle:

A pre-nuptual agreement (which seems to be popular in America but no place else) is simply a divorce/separation agreement in advance and frankly I don’t think it appropriate for Catholics to enter into such agreements.

They are also called marriage contracts. Ours has things in there on who does what etc. How does this promote divorce/seperation?
Pre-Nups…
The couple generally settles, in advance, financial matters in the event of death or divorce.“Lifestyle” or non-financial topics also may be included.
Some things that can and are included in a pre-nup:

1. 
   *]List all assets, liabilities, income, and expectations of gifts and inheritances.
   *]Describe how premarital debts will be paid.
   *]Resolve what happens to your premarital property in reference to appreciation, gains, income, rentals, dividends and proceeds of such property- in the event of death or divorce.
   *]Decide who, or if both of you, will own the marital residence and secondary homes in the event of death or divorce.
   *]Specify the status of gifts, inheritances, and trusts either spouse receives or benefits from, whether before or after marriage.
   *]Clarify what will happen to each type of property, whether jointly or individually owned, such as real estate, artwork and jewelry.
   *]Figure out alimony, maintenance, or spousal support, or provide for a waiver or property settlement instead of support (to the extent allowable by law).
   *]Detail death benefits, stating what you will provide for in your will.
   *]Decide on medical, disability, life or long-term-care insurance coverage.

 

[Karin]

thistle:

Protecting them from whom. It can only be protecting them from your husband? Right?

Nope it protects them form anyone that may think that they have a claim to them!

 

[thistle]

Karin:

They are also called marriage contracts. Ours has things in there on who does what etc. How does this promote divorce/seperation?
Pre-Nups…
The couple generally settles, in advance, financial matters in the event of death or divorce.“Lifestyle” or non-financial topics also may be included.
Some things that can and are included in a pre-nup:

1. 
   *]List all assets, liabilities, income, and expectations of gifts and inheritances.
   *]Describe how premarital debts will be paid.
   *]Resolve what happens to your premarital property in reference to appreciation, gains, income, rentals, dividends and proceeds of such property- in the event of death or divorce.
   *]Decide who, or if both of you, will own the marital residence and secondary homes in the event of death or divorce.
   *]Specify the status of gifts, inheritances, and trusts either spouse receives or benefits from, whether before or after marriage.
   *]Clarify what will happen to each type of property, whether jointly or individually owned, such as real estate, artwork and jewelry.
   *]Figure out alimony, maintenance, or spousal support, or provide for a waiver or property settlement instead of support (to the extent allowable by law).
   *]Detail death benefits, stating what you will provide for in your will.
   *]Decide on medical, disability, life or long-term-care insurance coverage.

1. 
   Like I said its an advance divorce/separation document. You even mention this in the points you list.
   Seems strange to me that the two of you as Catholics do not have enough trust in God and each other that your marriage will be for life that you draw up such an agreement.

 

[Karin]

thistle:

Like I said its an advance divorce/separation document. You even mention this in the points you list.** BUT NOT ALL POINTS **
Seems strange to me that the two of you as Catholics do not have enough trust in God and each other that your marriage will be for life that you draw up such an agreement.

Ours deals with all of these matters in regards to death only. Yes some people use them to deal with divorce issues (beforehand-in case of) but not all people do. How is that a bad thing?
Actually I do have faith that my marriage will last till one of us dies…
Once again a per-nup can be used as a Marriage Contract…who pays what, who does what, etc.

 

[Karin]

Also a pre-nup can be added to after marriage (or with consent by both parties) or it can be cancelled so to speak at any time with consent by both parties!

 

[Starsweeper]

I’m pretty sure that if you get a pre-nup this invalidates your marriage in the eyes of the Church. I personally know someone who was received an annulment on this reason alone. With a pre-nup you go into the marriage without believing in it’s indissolubility if you’re signing a document for the purpose of “just in case we divorce”. The primary purpose of a pre nup is to ensure an easy divorce, not something to be thinking about when entering into a marriage.

 

[1ke]

From Canon Law:

Can. 1102 ß1 Marriage cannot be validly contracted subject to a condition concerning the future.

So, yes, a prenuptial agreement could invalidate a marriage depending upon what is in it.

 

[Catholic2003]

From the Diocese of Pittsburgh:

PRENUPTIAL AGREEMENTS

The use of prenuptial agreements has become much more commonplace in recent years. The presence of a prenuptial agreement presents an immediate concern in the marriage preparation process. It is suggested that the priest or deacon ask the couple about the possible presence of a prenuptial agreement at the initial meeting along with the questions about the possible presence of a prior marriage. The couple needs to understand that a prenuptial agreement may be an obstacle to a marriage in the Catholic Church. A legal document that protects the separate assets of the prospective spouses may well undermine the community of life that is essential to a marriage and may render it invalid.

The case of a widow and widower who intend only to protect the natural right to inheritance of children of their first marriage may be an exception. This is clear if the prenuptial agreement provides for the disposition of the property in case of death rather than divorce. A prenuptial agreement that provides protection in the case of divorce may very well imply an exclusion of the permanence of marriage and, consequently, invalidate marital consent. In cases where one party has considerably more assets than the other and those assets are protected from the future spouse with no third party being benefited (such as elderly parents who spent their lives building a family business) it is hard to see how the couple is intending the community of life that is true marriage.

The priest or deacon must not presume that any prenuptial agreement is acceptable. Before wedding plans can go forward, a copy of the prenuptial agreement needs to be sent to the Department for Canon and Civil Law Services for evaluation. The couple must be informed that the wedding plans are on hold until a determination is made as to whether the prenuptial agreement in question would render the marriage invalid. If it is determined that the prenuptial agreement is invalidating, the couple must rescind the agreement before plans for a Catholic wedding can resume.

 

[thistle]

Ours deals with all of these matters in regards to death only. Yes some people use them to deal with divorce issues (beforehand-in case of) but not all people do. How is that a bad thing?
Actually I do have faith that my marriage will last till one of us dies…
Once again a per-nup can be used as a Marriage Contract…who pays what, who does what, etc.

If you are concerned about protecting your children in the unfortunate event of the death of youself and/or your husband this can be done by way of a WILL. A pre-nup agreement is specifically an advance divorce/separation document and I would think it is not something Catholics should entertain.

 

[Karin]

thistle:

If you are concerned about protecting your children in the unfortunate event of the death of youself and/or your husband this can be done by way of a WILL. A pre-nup agreement is specifically an advance divorce/separation document and I would think it is not something Catholics should entertain.

1. I have a Will as stated in an earlier post.
2. As stated by Catholic2003 in the post the Church does allow them (Pre-nups) for this purpose( natural right to inheritance of children of their first marriage may be an exception)

3.In the lovely “legal” world that we live in we can never be too sure who will contest something …so I prefer to have certain things duplicated in writting. My DH has no issue with it, the Church had no issue with it

1. Get off the idea that all a Pre-Nup is for is a divorce or seperation…as stated and shown it is NOT ALWAYS used for these purposes!

 

[Catholic2003]

Here is another writeup from the Archdiocese of New York that says essentially the same thing:

Does the Church have a position on pre-nuptial agreements?

The question of “prenuptial agreements” frequently arises in this day and age. These agreements are basically a contract between the prospective spouses about how their property and other rights will be handled within their marriage, and how they will be handled in the event of a divorce.

The Catholic Church does not have a blanket prohibition against prenuptial agreements. There may be some cases where they are perfectly legitimate. For example, if a widow with adult children marries a widower who also has adult children, a prenuptial agreement can be a legitimate way to preserve the inheritance rights of each spouse’s children to the property of the prior marriage.

In most cases, however, prenuptial agreements are a very bad idea, and may even call into doubt the validity of the marriage itself.

Remember, one of the basic elements of a Catholic marriage is indissolubility – that marriage is permanent, and cannot be dissolved. Jesus himself stated about marriage, “what God has joined, let no man separate” (Mt. 19:6). This teaching is very strongly reflected in the Canon Law, the law of the Church. For a marriage to be valid, the couple must both fully understand what indissolubility means and they must fully consent to it. There cannot be any conditions or reservations about the permanency of their marriage.

When a couple enters into a prenuptial agreement that foresees the break-up of their marriage, it strongly implies that they do not intend their marriage to be permanent. Instead, it suggests that their consent is only to be married until it doesn’t “work out”, and that they are more committed to their possessions than to the marriage. This is not compatible with Catholic marriage.

A prenuptial agreement also suggests that there are fundamental questions about the strength of the couple’s relationship. It implies a lack of trust and commitment, and maybe some doubts about whether they are really ready to get married. It also suggests that the couple is not truly dedicated to working through any difficulties that arise, but are instead already contemplating the “escape hatch” of divorce. After all, no sports team goes into a game expecting to lose. What does it say to my spouse that I’m already thinking ahead to a divorce, or that my stuff is more important to me than spending the rest of my life with her, no matter what?

Our advice is that couples should avoid pre-nuptial agreements. We would also recommend that the couple talk seriously about why they would contemplate a pre-nuptial agreement, and whether they are truly ready to make the commitment to a full, permanent marriage.

 

[Karin]

The Catholic Church does not have a blanket prohibition against prenuptial agreements. There may be some cases where they are perfectly legitimate. For example, if a widow with adult children marries a widower who also has adult children, **a prenuptial agreement can be a legitimate way to preserve the inheritance rights of each spouse’s children to the property of the prior marriage.
**

 

[Penny_Plain]

I did not have a prenuptual agreement; the huz and I didn’t have a pot (for any purpose) between us when we married.

If one of my boys was going into a marriage with significant assets, I would advise him to get a prenuptual agreement.

Nobody (or maybe very few people) go into marriage planning to fail. Everyone thinks his or her marriage is going to last forever. However, they don’t. Even our Church recognizes that marriages that appear legitimate may not be. This is why we have annulments.

I am not an expert on annulments. However, I believe that a marriage may be annulled by the Church, yet still recognised as a legitmate marriage by the civil authority. What’s wrong with protecting assets against such an eventuality? Keep in mind, also, that it only takes one person to get a divorce.

What’s wrong with using an agreement for some of the purposes Karin described?

My father trusts God to take care of him. He carefully maintains his home and hopes nothing bad will happen to it. Does this mean that he shouldn’t buy fire insurance?

 

[mosher]

A pre-nup does not de facto cause a marriage to be invalid however it is cause for grounds if a person is seeking an annulment. The reason for this is the disposition of the parties in the marriage can be seen as lacking permanence in establishing a sacramental bond and thus the marriage would not be valid. Pre-nups are a dangerous thing and while at the seminary we were strongly advised to advise the faithful to not procure one for any reason.