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EasterJoy
Guest
In other words, if the marriage (convalidation) is done in the Church, a dispensation can possibly be granted to marry an avowed apostate. A thorny pastoral problem, that.
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puzzleannie
Guest
no what is true about this hypothetical situation, and OP’s, and all the ones in the middle is that each couple must approach their own priest, give him ALL the relevant facts about their own personal marriage situation-which usually entails more than one meeting and a detailed interview process to arrive at the truth–and allow him to guide them pastorally on what do do next. Yes there are solutions for EJ’s hypothetical situation, but useless to give a general answer, because the next post is going to say, “yes but what about so and so”.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Very good point. But it is possible in the right circumstances, that’s a good thing.
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Spirithound
Guest
Good summary, but no more thorny than a Catholic marrying your average heretic.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Only that when the children were born and validly baptised,* both* of the spouses were apostate. It is a little different than a Catholic who has never left the Church and who has not been in a long-standing putative marriage within a different faith wanting to marry an apostate. From a pastoral standpoint, it is a situation to be approached with extra care, I would think.
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1ke
Guest
Can. 1071 §1 Except in a case of necessity, no one is to assist without the permission of the local Ordinary at:
§2 The local Ordinary is not to give permission to assist at the marriage of a person who has notoriously rejected the Catholic faith unless, with the appropriate adjustments, the norms of can. 1125 have been observed.
Can. 1125 The local Ordinary can grant this permission if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions are fulfilled:
1° the catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith, and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power in order that all the children be baptised and brought up in the catholic Church;
2° the other party is to be informed in good time of these promises to be made by the catholic party, so that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and of the obligation of the catholic party
3° both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either contractant.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Yes, the confusion is in the use of the word valid or invalid and here is why, there are multiple marriage standards namely Natural, Legal, and sacramental. So you describe a valid Natural and legal marriage but and invalid sacramental marriage.
both, the catholic was disobedient to the church and approached marriage without proper practices
Protestant first marriages are presumed valid at all levels, this is because they lack access to the Catholic Church which is needed to grant the sacramental status.
hope that clears it up
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Spirithound
Guest
No, a marriage cannot be both valid natural and invalid sacramental.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
You may need to notify the Church to have them change the catechism particularly passages starting with #1601
*1603 “The intimate community of life and love which constitutes the married state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws… God himself is the author of marriage.” [GS 48 # 1] **The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman *as they came from the hand of the Creator. Marriage is not a purely human institution despite the many variations it may have undergone through the centuries in different cultures, social structures, and spiritual attitudes. These differences should not cause us to forget its common and permanent characteristics. Although the dignity of this institution is not transparent everywhere with the same clarity, [GS 47 # 2] some sense of the greatness of the matrimonial union exists in all cultures. “The well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian society is closely bound up with the healthy state of conjugal and family life.” [GS 47 # 1]
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Spirithound
Guest
You may need to read that paragraph again. It does not contradict my statement.
A marriage is either valid or invalid. If it is valid, then it is either natural or sacramental. A marriage cannot be said to be valid-natural and invalid-sacramental.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
The teaching is clear God not man created marriage. Marriage dates to the very beginning of man NOT to the beginning of the Church. The church also teaches that divorce was allowed outside the Church. Additionally, the Church issues dispensation to this day. What do you think they are dispensing? Additionally, the Church recognizes trinitarian baptism outside the church, when a married couple comes to the church with one baptized outside the church the other not baptized the couple is treated how? The real issue is confusing the role of the church in regard to marriage verses the role of marriage.
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Dave_in_Dallas
Guest
OK so can anyone explain this.?
- my wife’s ex left her for another woman ( he was catholic, wife wasn’t)
- 6 months after my wife’s divorce, her ex wanted an annullment so he could get married in Catholic church, she refused to participate
- wife’s ex married adulterer… and a few years later they went to teh church and had their marriage blessed (allegedly… according to children)
- my wife never heard anything further on annullment
- local Deacon went to tribunal and found no record of annullment
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
First, no licit nor valid blessing of the marriage can occur before an annulment as he is not considered free to marry. Second if your wife contacts the diocese where she was married it will have a current record, meaning either it shows your wife as married or shows an annulment was issued to void the sacrament record. An annulment can be issues without consent from both parties, provided the petitioning party shows reasonable proof.
My questions is why does it matter? If your wife wants to marry in the Catholic Church she can apply for an annulment. Since your wife was not catholic it would not require a high standard. In fact the record should show a dispensation issued for him and a record of Natural Marriage for him. Your wife was not under Canon Law. So your wife can clean her record in the diocese rather easily
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Dave_in_Dallas
Guest
Her original marriage wasn’t in the Catholic church nor blessed by it… her ex didn’t care at the time…
The annulment would have gone thru the local tribunal where the ex got married this time, not the one where they were originally married?
We don’t want to apply for annulment because we don’t want to have anything to do with her ex.
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that_name
Guest
Did her ex apply for a dispensation to marry outside of form?
If not, he likely rec’d a “defect of form” ruling from the tribunal. Have the chancery office check for one.
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Phemie
Guest
The first question I would ask is “Where did they get married?”
If it was a Catholic Church, then he has to petition for a decree of nullity. If such had been granted you’d find a notation in the marriage records of the Church where they married and in the register of baptisms in the parish where he was baptized.
If it wasn’t in the Catholic Church, did he do all that he had to do to make the marriage valid?
IOW, did he have a dispensation from canonical form? Did he have permission/dispensation (which one depends on whether your wife was baptized or not) to marry her? If those are lacking the marriage would not be presumed valid and all that would be required is for the paperwork to be filed. Your wife wouldn’t even need to be notified because it has nothing to do with her and everything to do with him not following Church law in the first place.
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revert_jen
Guest
Probably your wife can get an annulment for defect of form. I was in a similar situation, but I was the Catholic party. I did have to apply for an annulment but since the following were all true, it was a “defect of form” and my ex-husband didn’t have to be contacted (which was good as I had no idea how to contact him):
– I was baptised Catholic
– I never officially declared myself an atheist or officially joined another church (just going to another church for years doesn’t count
)– I was married in a non-Catholic church, with no Catholic priest present and no permission from the local bishop
I had already been divorced for a few years when I came back to the Church, so I had to confess “going through a form of marriage” etc., during my confession when returning to the Church, and then once I applied it took about a month for the annulment.
Also this means that your wife’s ex-husband could have applied for and received an annulment for defect of form without your wife being contacted. I believe that the ex-spouse is supposed to be contacted (well, informed, really) if contact information for the ex-spouse is available, but I’d think it’s possible that the ex-husband might not have provided any contact information. It might not even be with any malicious intent, as for example, I would not expect that my ex-husband (who was baptised a Presbyterian but who was a self-declared atheist) would have any interest whatsoever in the annulment, also since he had already married someone else at the time.
You can apply for an annulment in any of three dioceses: the one where you were married, the one where the husband currently (at the time of the annulment application) lives, or the one where the wife currently lives. You might want to check the records of any other relevant dioceses. I don’t know anything about the recordkeeping and distribution of this information, though.
–Jen
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Thus the catholic church would have no records of any kind
either or ( where he lives, or where she lives, or where they married, or a diocese which was key to their lives)
? She would not have to deal with the ex. The tribunal would contact the ex, since he has no reason to persuade the tribunal of his genuine desire to live with her it really would not matter.
What are you desiring to accomplish?
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Dave_in_Dallas
Guest
This is a bit painful for my wife, as I wrote earlier is that her ex ran off with another woman, and still to this day… 9 years later… does everything he can to make her life heck… and talking about the past brings up old wounds… so I want this to be as easy on my wife as possible. And since the ex evidently got it blessed, I don’t want to duplicate any work…
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Dave_in_Dallas
Guest
Should I contact the parish where they “allegedly” got blessed and see if they can help… i.e. would they have records of the blessing?
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