Marriage annulment question!!! Help

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MountinMan

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My wife and i are currently in RCIA. We are very excited about finding our way home to the Cathoilc Church. We have been married for 3.3 years and are currently awaiting our 2nd child together!! (Boy this time!! Be here in May) We are both crazy about each other to this day and believe we are meant to be together!! We get each other and always have fun and trust each other completely. Our marriage is great and even better over the past 7 months since we made God and the Church the main focus of our lives. My question is, she had a previous marriage. She was 19 years old, he was mentally abusive and they never really connected. They were both baptized in protestant churches. They were together for a year and a half or so, courtship and marriage all together. My wife has sent her questioner in and her 3 witnesses have sent theirs. Her ex didn;t want to mess with the extremly long questions so he wrote a letter stateinghis thoughts on it. However, noneof his witneses will respond. Is there still a way to get the annulment?? without the rest of the witnesses? We are praying and praying but our priest says he thinks she has to find 6 witnesses. and none of his people will respond. she has takied to them in person and they say they dont want to mess withit. (even though originally they aggred until they saw how long and in depth it was) Thank you for any help!!
 
My wife has sent her questioner in and her 3 witnesses have sent theirs. Her ex didn;t want to mess with the extremly long questions so he wrote a letter stateinghis thoughts on it. However, noneof his witneses will respond. Is there still a way to get the annulment?? without the rest of the witnesses?
Yes, the petition can continue even if he and/or his witnesses do not participate.
We are praying and praying but our priest says he thinks she has to find 6 witnesses. and none of his people will respond.
Your wife should talk to her advocate, and if necessary to the judicial vicar at the diocese and follow his guidance.
 
my wife’s ex acted in the same manner, agreed then backed out and refused to talk to the tribunal members.
the procedure carried on without their witness.
 
They were both baptized in protestant churches. Her ex didn;t want to mess with the extremely long questions so he wrote a letter stating his thoughts on it.
Witnesses are not as crucial as the statements of the parties themselves. Assuming both were of age and understood that marriage is until death, that it requires fidelity, and that they were open to children–it is possible that their marriage is valid.

The only way one could be reasonably-certain of the outcome of the investigation would be to appeal it to the Roman Rota at second instance.

[edited]

For more information, see: marysadvocates.org/
 
The only way one could be reasonably-certain of the outcome of the investigation would be to appeal it to the Roman Rota at second instance.
This is incorrect. The Rota is not the court of second instance, nor should it be used as such. The appeal goes to the Rota if there is disagreement between the first and second instance.

[edited]
 
This is incorrect. The Rota is not the court of second instance, nor should it be used as such. The appeal goes to the Rota if there is disagreement between the first and second instance.

[edited]
👍 1ke

my wife’s annulment went to the Roman Rota and was declared null.
 
Originally Posted by merdecranz
The only way one could be reasonably-certain of the outcome of the investigation would be to appeal it to the Roman Rota at second instance.
This is incorrect. The Rota is not the court of second instance, nor should it be used as such. The appeal goes to the Rota if there is disagreement between the first and second instance.

Please 1ke, I pray, do not spread that… and take it back wherever you have spread it. Most Catholics, sadly, do not understand that they can ask the Roman Rota to be the court of second instance.

*Roman Rota Request The respondent can advise the tribunal of intent to go to Rota. At any time during the first instance tribunal process, the respondent can advise tribunal that the second instance tribunal is to be the Roman Rota, as is one’s right (Canon 1444, 1, Annotations on 1444, 1405, *

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Originally Posted by 1ke
This is incorrect. The Rota is not the court of second instance, nor should it be used as such. The appeal goes to the Rota if there is disagreement between the first and second instance.
:thumbsup:1ke
my wife’s annulment went to the Roman Rota and was declared null.

fbl9
I’m not quite sure what you mean by your “wife’s annulment being declared null” but if you are “thumbs upping” 1ke’s comment that the Rota should not be used as the court of second instance then please, I pray, take that lie back wherever it has been spread.

(Maybe, however, you are disproving him by stating that your wife received a null verdict from the tribunal of first instance but the Roman Rota told her that she was, and is, still really married??)

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Please 1ke, I pray, do not spread that… and take it back wherever you have spread it. Most Catholics, sadly, do not understand that they can ask the Roman Rota to be the court of second instance.
Yes, it can be used that way. But it is not intended to be the second instance. If you use it as the second instance and they disagree with the first instance, then there is no recourse for a final decision. Very bad indeed.

So, no I will not “take back” anything because using the Rota as the court of second instance is ill advised. I suggest following the process as laid out in canon law using the second instance outlined here:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5F.HTM

The Rota:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P5G.HTM
 
fbl9
I’m not quite sure what you mean by your “wife’s annulment being declared null” but if you are “thumbs upping” 1ke’s comment that the Rota should not be used as the court of second instance then please, I pray, take that lie back wherever it has been spread.

(Maybe, however, you are disproving him by stating that your wife received a null verdict from the tribunal of first instance but the Roman Rota told her that she was, and is, still really married??)

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
my mistake i meant marraige not annulment.
It was the Roman Rota that decleared her marriage invalid.
 
Dear MountainMan,

Blessings on you, your wife and children as catachumens into the Catholic faith!

Your wife does not need “cooperation” from her Respondent - his participation is not mandatory. She can proceed with her Advocate without the Respondent’s “cooperation”.

I was a Petitioner with an advocate who was my Eastern rite pastor in 1985-1986; my Libellus were prepared by him. Because my attempt at marriage when I was 19 occurred in the Latin rite, my petition was submitted to our local Latin rite tribunal.

My Respondent ignored the officiating tribunal.

“Respondent” and I eloped several days after his 18th birthday; we sought convalidation about 2 1/2 months later. I am not certain of exact canonical grounds argued, but I recall my pastor spoke about one party giving “consent” but the other does not.

The Latin rite tribunal completed investigation and due diligence about 12 months after accepting my petition as having sufficient grounds to proceed.

My petition was prepared with the spiritual guidance from my Advocate, and it called into doubt lack of consent (my Respondent’s ability to consent to the essential obligations of married life).

My 1980s pastor studied canon law in Rome for several years. He and I had six or seven meetings and we spoke in depth. Prior to submitting my petition, he inquired about any reconcilliation but there was no hope of reconcilliation between myself and my Respondent.

My Respondent’s misconduct presented evidence of unwillingness and unawareness of the lifelong obligations required by both parties in a valid Christian marriage. My testimony and sworn statements from my three witnesses indicated this conduct. One of my witnesses was a staff priest who served the church we attended (together) before permanent separation.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia regarding requirements for a valid marriage (from link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_(Catholic_Church):

The Catholic Church also has requirements before Catholics can be considered validly married in the eyes of the Church. A valid Catholic marriage results from four elements: (1) the spouses are free to marry; (2) they freely exchange their consent; (3) in consenting to marry, they have the intention to marry for life, to be faithful to one another and be open to children; and (4) their consent is given in the presence of two witnesses and before a properly authorized Church minister. Exceptions to the last requirement must be approved by church authority.

My old pastor who acted as my Advocate in 1985-1986 passed into the Lord in 2006 - or I would email him/phone him and privately email you. He did not blame me, he did not shame me, nor did he judge me. Do not allow anyone to inflict shame upon your wife regarding her annulment petition. Spousal abuse or neglect is a horrible thing to endure. I would encourage her to seek spiritual direction with her Advocate as to your mutual life (now) and identify what factors are present to indicate a good, solid foundation for married life with convalidation.

As a priest with a vocation to be of service to his parish members, my Advocate acted with the motivation for me to be in good standing with Mother Church. My Advocate did not believe punishment and shame should hang over a person who experienced deception, concealment of an impediment to marriage and the other party’s inability to provide irrevocable consent…

As Christians, we are called to protect valid marriage between a man and woman. Holy Gospel teaches that marriage is intended as a lifelong union between a man and woman. Our Catholic Catechism teaches that marriage is sacramental and intended to be a lifelong union between man and woman under natural law.

There is significant controversy in the United States regarding tribunal officials who appear to automatically grant decrees of nullity - we have a 50 percent civil divorce rate. 50 percent civil divorce indicates a social epidemic. However, the Church has identified impediments to marriage and through her local tribunals and the Vatican Rota’s decisions by examining whether the marriage in question was valid. What I mean to say here? Just like some civil divorces should not be granted…there are valid marriages which the Church should protect (for example, long term marriage where both parties are biological parents, there is an absence of physical spouse abuse…yet, after twenty years, one spouse has a radical mid-life crisis and abandons the family for superficial reasons…questionable reasons).

Annulment proceedings by the Church are not a phenomenon of the 20th century; church jurisprudence existed for many years. Each case is unique, however.

Your post mentioned physical abuse occurred in your wife’s prior relationship. Most of us recognize that physical spouse abuse is a serious crime in the 21st century - for many years, husbands were allowed to physically strike their wives as disciplne. Physical abuse (punching, slapping, shoving, etc) is against what Paul teaches in Ephesians 5 ("Husbands love your wives, etc.) . Physical abuse (when repeated) inflicted towards a woman is wrongful. Many psychiatrists would argue that a pattern of physical abuse inflicted on a woman by her husband might indicate “impulsive control disorder”.

Hopefully your wife will understand what was absent when she and her Respondent attempted marriage, and she will explore all pertinent issues in-depth with her Advocate.

May God bless your family’s period of being Catachumens and ultimately becoming full members of the Church.
 
Originally Posted by FCGeorge
Please 1ke, I pray, do not spread that… and take it back wherever you have spread it. Most Catholics, sadly, do not understand that they can ask the Roman Rota to be the court of second instance.
Yes, it can be used that way. But it is not intended to be the second instance. If you use it as the second instance and they disagree with the first instance, then there is no recourse for a final decision. Very bad indeed.

Hello 1ke,
I pray that if you consider with a sincere heart your comment made earlier…
This is incorrect. The Rota is not the court of second instance, nor should it be used as such. The appeal goes to the Rota if there is disagreement between the first and second instance.
you will see how many Catholics would read this and determine that they either cannot or should not appeal to the Roman Rota as their court of second instance.

This could have an eternal impact on souls.

*If * the American tribunals judged cases in a similar way as the Roman Rota did *then * we could fairly say, "Hey, we have a second instance tribunal set up here in America at the local Archdiocese so just use that as your court of second instance.

However, the overwhelming evidence is that the American tribunals are NOT judging validity of marriage in the same way as the Roman Rota does.

I personally have corresponded with two individuals who were told by two separate American tribunals that they were not validly married. They each, however, knew of there right to appeal to the Roman Rota…
Can. 1444 §1. The Roman Rota judges:
1/ in second instance, cases which have been adjudicated by the ordinary tribunals of first instance and brought before the Holy See through legitimate appeal;

(from your link)

The Roman Rota determined that both of the marriages were valid (concluded there was not enough evidence to show either marriage invalid). These two individuals knew that they were married but the American tribunals used psychological grounds (Canon 1095) to try to tell them that they were not married.

A study completed in the 1980’s looked at all of the cases over a 5 year period heard by the Roman Rota after an American tribunal had ruled invalidity due to psychological grounds. I believe 49 total cases were looked at. The American tribunal had ruled in each of these that the marriage was not valid. However, the Roman Rota determined in something like 44 of them that the marriage was (and is) valid.

In the 49 times the Roman Rota had a chance to review the American tribunal telling people “You were never married,” the Roman Rota told something like 44 of them, “you are married.”

This is a very big deal. These types of things have caused the Popes over the past couple of decades to issue statements calling for reform in how western tribunals are granting easy annulments.

It is very uncharitable to discourage people from asking that the Roman Rota be the court of second instance. Imagine if the 49 couples in that study had been discouraged from asking the Roman Rota to be the court of second instance. Their cased would have gone to an American tribunal for the second instance. The second American tribunal would have (in all probability) simply reached the same decision as the first American tribunal.

These people would have really been married in God’s eyes but told by two American tribunals that they were not married and somehow free to “marry” somebody else.

This second “marriage” wouldn’t have freed them from God being a witness between them and the “spouse of their youth.” Sacred Scripture promises us this.

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
 
To get back to truly helping the original poster…

For centuries and centuries a baptized Christian would have been told… out of love for their soul… to separate from an adulterous remarriage.

Now, instead, we counsel these people to “seek an annulment” of their “previous marriage.”

However, we are to assume validity of a marriage until the Church determines otherwise. Based on the limited information we were given by the original poster we have to assume there was (and is) a valid “first” marriage. The original poster may in fact be in an adulterous remarriage.

The other hugely important thing for the salvation of souls is to seek truth in the annulment process… rather than “seeking an annulment.”
Is there still a way to get the annulment??
This comment made by the original poster may reveal a heart that is seeking an annulment rather than the truth.

It seems many are now encouraged to provide only evidence and arguments designed at achieving their desired result… an annulment.

They are not reminded that they should provided ALL relevant evidences and arguments. That the goal is “seeking Truth.” They are not reminded that the Lord will be a witness between them and the spouse of their youth… whomever that spouse is.

Anyway, I pray for this man and this woman that they will be open to the Holy Spirit guiding them to truth.

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
 
To get back to truly helping the original poster…

The other hugely important thing for the salvation of souls is to seek truth in the annulment process… rather than “seeking an annulment.”

This comment made by the original poster may reveal a heart that is seeking an annulment rather than the truth.

It seems many are now encouraged to provide only evidence and arguments designed at achieving their desired result… an annulment.

They are not reminded that they should provided ALL relevant evidences and arguments. That the goal is “seeking Truth.” They are not reminded that the Lord will be a witness between them and the spouse of their youth… whomever that spouse is.

Anyway, I pray for this man and this woman that they will be open to the Holy Spirit guiding them to truth.

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
And what is that?
Do you not think that the same heart would accept the previous marriage being valid if it was detremined to be so?
i know i was.
 
Thanks for all the comments. We just continue to pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us and for all of this to work out. I know how serious and lifelong marriage is. But I also can’t make myself believe that God would have lead me to meet my wife, give us 2 amazing children together, and then draw us to the Church in the way he has, and changed my heart and life in so many ways, just to tell me that I have to not be a husband to the mother of my kids if i want to be a part of the one and only true Church that Jesus Christ founded! I know that they could come back and say that the marriage was and is valid, however my wife feels certain that it wasn’t and that our life and The Church is the only way for us to live. We just hope and pray every day and trust in The Lord.

Thank you all
 
I think we should all pray for the OP. The most important thing is to let the truth come out. Actually the Catholic Church is very understanding in a situation where there children involved no separation is needed. Both parties just need to live as brothers and sisters. If I were the OP and the annulment is granted I would pray the respondent to use Rome as second instance due the wide abuse in the US(it is statistically improbable to have less than 5 percent of the Catholic population of the world yet more than 60 percent granted annulment, even some parish priests confirm most members thought it is a matter of filling out paper work for annulment). If the OP truly loves his wife the last thing he wants is eternal fire and torment for her. Remember the Lord said my way is not your way.

God Bless.
 
I think we should all pray for the OP. The most important thing is to let the truth come out. Actually the Catholic Church is very understanding in a situation where there children involved no separation is needed. Both parties just need to live as brothers and sisters. If I were the OP and the annulment is granted I would pray the respondent to use Rome as second instance due the wide abuse in the US(it is statistically improbable to have less than 5 percent of the Catholic population of the world yet more than 60 percent granted annulment, even some parish priests confirm most members thought it is a matter of filling out paper work for annulment). If the OP truly loves his wife the last thing he wants is eternal fire and torment for her. Remember the Lord said my way is not your way.

God Bless.
 
OP, please speak to your advocate and let the Holy Spirit be your guide. 1ke offers good sound advice based in Canon.
 
The Roman Rota is dragged out periodically as proof that (some, many, most, the vast majority - take your pick) decrees of nullity by American tribunals are phony.

However, the Rota, by the accounts I have seen, hear maybe 300 to 500 cases a year; the number of cases heard in the US are in the tens of thousands - and the Rota doesn’t just hear cases from the US on appeal, so the total US cases is lower.

Trying to go from 49 case to tens of thousands of cases has no bearing on what is occuring today, or for that matter, what was happening in the 1980’s. It is a logical falacy to presume that the cases the Rota decided were a legitimate sampling of all the cases heard at that time.

There is no question that there have been cases which should not have granted a decree of nullity. But the presumption that the majority, or larger were wrongly decided simply has no factual basis.

The use of psychological inability to confect a marriage is from Canon law. It can be abused; but there is no presumption that it is invalid.

Further, there are more cases that do not obtain a decree of nullity, from research, than there are which obtain a decree. To begin with, marriages which do not end in a finding of nullity don’t get reported. The reporting is for those which are granted a decree.

For those which don’t, they end up not obtaining a decree of nullity in any number of places besides a “final decision”. They may stop the whole process before the petition is filed as the petitioner is told they do not have a case. They may stop anywhere along the way after the paperwork is started, and for any number of reasons, including a decision that it does not appear at that point that there is sufficient evidence that a decree might be granted; and it may be that it comes to a decision, and the decision is that no decree witll be granted. Ater that, it can result in a split decision and not be appealed to the Rota (for any number of reasons).

CARA did research on divorced Catholics,

According to their findings, 7% of divorced Catholics have obtained a decree of nullity.

8% started the process, and did not receive a decree.

And 85% of divorced Catholics have not sought one.

And given the immaturity of young adults, the serial sexual partners that so many of them have had before they do get married, and the high incident of people getting divorced whose parents were also divorced, coupled with the lack of catechesis of the great majority of those under the age of 50, and the low rate of Mass attendance in those age groups, it is a wonder that any of them have the first clue about the indissolubility of marriage. Modern society doesn’t even believe that marriage is soley between a man and a woman. Modern society also accepts serial marriage and divorce, living together without marriage, trial “marriage”, shacking up, and "friends with benefits. and the vast majority of Catholics getting married live their daily lives smack dab in the middle of modern society.

Yes, the issue of the sacramentality of the marriage has to do with the intent on the day of the marriage. But there is certainly a valid issue of whether that intent was one truly formed, or simply a romantic passing notion in almost total contradiction to how that person (or both of them) were living their lives as they came to that point.

I agree that the truth needs to come out; I disagree that the truth does not come out. Tribunals have been working hard to make good decisions; it is time to let go of what happend 20, 25 or 30 years ago and look at what is going on today.
 
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