Marriage as a Sacrament in non-Catholic churches

[Gabriel_of_12]

For the sake of debate, here are two more examples when a marriage between two validly baptized non-Catholic Christians is never a sacrament.

A forced marriage due to a pregnancy for example; between two validly baptized Christians whether Catholic or non-Catholic is never a sacramental marriage.

An arranged marriage without the consent of the two validly baptized Catholic or non-Catholic Christians who are married by the Pope is never a sacramental marriage.

So, a Marriage as Sacrament in non-Catholic churches has to be discerned in a case by case by the Church in order to determine whether or not the marriage is a sacrament.

Marriage is a covenant of love for life. The Church does not recognize all marriages with a broad brush stroke as all being sacramental just because the married couple is baptized.

Peace be with you

 

[SMHW]

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The Church agrees with my point. A natural marriage is not to be confused with a sacramental marriage. Both are considered a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church.

The Church agrees that there are both natural and sacramental marriages possible for non-Catholics (of the opposite sex).

1. Two baptized non-Catholics have valid, sacramental marriages. Perhaps this should be stated in the negative: If a “marriage” between two baptized non-Catholics is non-sacramental then it must be non-valid.
2. A baptized non-Catholic and an unbaptized person have a valid natural marriage.
3. Two unbaptized persons have a valid natural marriage.

The Op addresses “non-Catholic Churches”. There are non-Catholic church’s who marry validly baptized same sex couples. In this same sex case marriage example between two non-Catholic validly baptized Christians is never a sacrament.

Such contractual arrangements may be “marriages” by legal standards but the Church does not consider them to be “marriages” even if they are contracted in non-Catholic churches. They are not valid; they are not natural; and they are certainly not sacramental.

So I would suggest you use words like “legally unite”, “civil union”, and “contract” rather than “marry” or “marriage” when in this folder.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

So I would suggest you use words like “legally unite”, “civil union”, and “contract” rather than “marry” or “marriage” when in this folder.

You make my earlier point, when these unions occur without the understanding, discernment of what is a sacramental marriage, do not necessarily constitute them as sacramental. But thank you for introducing new terms to the OP.

In the context of the OP, a “unite, civil union, contract”, arranged marriage is not sacramental. I did not discount these as invalid, because the Church recognizes these as a valid marriage.

What is valid, invalid, licit, illicit has to be discerned by the Church in a case by case for non-Catholic marriages, whether or not they are sacramental.

It is supposed and prayed by the Church that non-Catholic validly baptized Christians who willfully consent to marriage is sacramental. Although if one spouse consented by a forceful or other means without the free will of both, discounts and invalidates the sacramental union.

There are many examples such as these that invalidate a sacramental marriage.

 

[Digitonomy]

If a validly baptized man and a validly baptized woman are married constitutes a sacrament? Then why is a divorce granted? when there is no divorce in a sacramental marriage?

…Yet divorce exist as common place between two non-Catholic married baptized man and woman.

…Marriage as a Sacrament in non-Catholic church’s would be considered illicit, just from the lack of understanding by the non-Catholic couple of what a sacramental marriage is in the eyes of God.

…if the marriage is done with a heretical view of the Trinity brings into question the validity of the sacrament.

You are paying too much attention to what the non-Catholic’s church teaches. All that really matters on that count is that the non-Catholic church counts the marriage as valid.

Just because the non-Catholic church (as presumably the non-Catholic couple marrying) accepts divorce, or same sex marriage, or believes in say modalism, does not mean that a marriage did not take place. In fact, if those are your only issues with the marriage, the Church would accept that a marriage did take place. And a marriage between baptized non-Catholics is sacramental.

You can always go back and say to a marriage tribunal “Wait, even though the marriage enjoys the presumption of validity, I don’t think it was valid because of the multiple shotguns aimed at the head of the groom during the ceremony.” And the tribunal may decide that there never was a marriage. If there was no marriage, obviously there was no sacrament. But that situation is exactly the same for Catholics. If there is a marriage, it is sacramental.

 

[FrDavid96]

Hi all,

I have a similar situation where I wish to marry a Protestant. I am a Roman Catholic and we both have a devotion to our given faiths. On a personal level, what is most important to me from a religious perspective is that my marriage is true and seen by the Roman Catholic Church as valid, as a sacrament and I would be considered to not just be married in law but in the eyes of God and my beliefs.

It is likely that if married, my other half would want to be married in her own parish, i.e. In a Protestant church. I have read online about dispensations but am struggling to find what I’d consider up to date posts on websites that I would consider trustworthy. What I mean by this is that I’d prefer the view of a Catholic priest rather than Wikipedia.
…

It’s possible for the bishop to allow a Catholic and a non-Catholic to marry in a religious (but not purely secular) ceremony officiated by a non-Catholic minister.

If (and I say only “if”) you decide to go that route, think of it this way:

You will have a document signed by the Catholic bishop (or his duly appointed representative such as the chancellor or vicar general) allowing this to happen. Surely, that documentation proves the point that the Catholic Church considers that situation to be completely legitimate and valid. If that were not so, the bishop would not have done it.

 

[SMHW]

What is valid, invalid, licit, illicit has to be discerned by the Church in a case by case for non-Catholic marriages, whether or not they are sacramental.

It is supposed and prayed by the Church that non-Catholic validly baptized Christians who willfully consent to marriage is sacramental. Although if one spouse consented by a forceful or other means without the free will of both, discounts and invalidates the sacramental union.

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Yes. But I think, in the context of the OP’s question, we should focus on marriages that enjoy the presumption of validity.

That’s why so many discussions of this sort include caveats about the absence of the ‘usual impediments.’ That allows us to exclude them from the rest of the conversion.

 

[Vico]

If a validly baptized man and a validly baptized woman are married constitutes a sacrament? Then why is a divorce granted? when there is no divorce in a sacramental marriage?

A sacramental marriage is sacred before God and no man can put asunder what God has joined together.

Would Christ divorce His bride the Church?

A valid sacramental marriage constitutes the man and woman consenting before God with a witness to be one in life until death, with both man and woman possessing the freedom and disposition to vow a life together, when divorce is never an option.

Yet divorce exist as common place between two non-Catholic married baptized man and woman.

I believe a case by case circumstance calls for discernment whether or not the marriage is a valid sacrament especially when divorce is considered an option for failing marriages.

Marriage as a Sacrament in non-Catholic church’s would be considered illicit, just from the lack of understanding by the non-Catholic couple of what a sacramental marriage is in the eyes of God.

If divorce is never an option, then the marriage can be licit sacramentally.

I think you are correct with the idea that if a people marry without knowing that basic meaning of marriage that it is invalid because proper consent is missing. The celebration is presumed to conform to the outer words and form. The man and women must consent to an exclusive and lifelong union, for example. (The example is not meant to be only factor.) Some couples exclude from the start, what is required for a valid marriage.

 

[Phemie]

For the sake of debate, here are two more examples when a marriage between two validly baptized non-Catholic Christians is never a sacrament.

A forced marriage due to a pregnancy for example; between two validly baptized Christians whether Catholic or non-Catholic is never a sacramental marriage.

An arranged marriage without the consent of the two validly baptized Catholic or non-Catholic Christians who are married by the Pope is never a sacramental marriage.

So, a Marriage as Sacrament in non-Catholic churches has to be discerned in a case by case by the Church in order to determine whether or not the marriage is a sacrament.

Marriage is a covenant of love for life. The Church does not recognize all marriages with a broad brush stroke as all being sacramental just because the married couple is baptized.

Peace be with you

There are a few things you have to keep in mind. When the Catholic Church refers to marriage, she is only referring to a man/woman union. Nothing else is considered “marriage.” So if the Church says marriages between two baptized persons are sacramental, she means exactly that since anything between two men and two women is not “marriage.”

Not all marriages where pregnancy is involved are “forced.”

In our culture we see arranged marriages differently from how they are viewed in the societies where they are common.

An arranged marriage, if both come to it wllingly, is presumed valid. Love does not have to enter the picture. As long as there is free consent and the intent to be faithful, married for life and accepting of children, the marriage is valid.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Phemie;12653162]There are a few things you have to keep in mind. When the Catholic Church refers to marriage, she is only referring to a man/woman union. Nothing else is considered “marriage.” So if the Church says marriages between two baptized persons are sacramental, she means exactly that since anything between two men and two women is not “marriage.”

Yes, thank you for clarifying a point that needed to be said here for non-Catholic Church’s.

The OP does not specify the Church’s view of what constitutes a marriage.

The OP addresses “Marriage as a Sacrament in non-Catholic churches”.

The Anglican and Lutheran’s also recognize a sacramental marriage, yet some have allowed same sex marriage in their communities. How would you address the Anglican and Lutheran sacramental marriages of same sex unions? Do you consider these marriages by non-Catholic Church’s as sacramental?

I repeat; We nor the Catholic church do not stroke with a broad brush that all non-Catholic marriages are sacramental. As some posters have indicated here. It has to be discerned what is not a marriage, what is natural marriage and what is sacramental in non-Catholic church’s because the REALITY reveals all of the above taking place in non-Catholic church’s.

Can you point to me in the CCC where the Church defines a same sex marriage in non-Catholic church’s as being non-sacramental? Or she doesn’t recognize same sex marriage as a marriage?

I am not disagreeing with the Church’s teaching on what constitutes a sacramental marriage between a man and a woman. As some posters falsely implied.

A non-Catholic same sex couple would get the wrong impression here by some posters that the Catholic church would recognize their same sex union as a sacramental marriage.

I hope by these post’s, this subject makes it clear that not ALL non-Catholic church’s are sacramental marriages.

Peace be with you

 

[SMHW]

A non-Catholic same sex couple would get the wrong impression here by some posters that the Catholic church would recognize their same sex union as a sacramental marriage.

I hope by these post’s, this subject makes it clear that not ALL non-Catholic church’s are sacramental marriages.

Peace be with you

I’m not sure why you would think that that some posters would think the Catholic Church recognizes same-sex unions as sacramental when the Church is clear that she doesn’t even recognize such unions as marriages.

There are certain conditions for valid marriages that apply to EVERYONE, Catholic or otherwise. There must be exactly two persons of opposite sex, the parties must be of a certain age, they cannot be validly married to another (living) person, they must freely exchange consent, they must willingly accept children, they must intend to be faithful to each other, they cannot be too closely related…

No one is suggesting the Church overlooks those requirements for non-Catholics to have a valid and possibly sacramental marriage.

All we’ve ever said is that IF non-Catholics are validly married AND IF they are both validly baptized, THEN their marriage must be sacramental.

 

[Phemie]

Can you point to me in the CCC where the Church defines a same sex marriage in non-Catholic church’s as being non-sacramental? Or she doesn’t recognize same sex marriage as a marriage?

Same-sex “marriage” did not exist when the Catechism of the Catholic Church was published 30+ years ago so there was no need for the Catechism to address it.

That said, the section on marriage in the Catechism constantly refers to man and woman. We know that the Church teaches that a valid marriage can only exist if it follows natural law and same-sex marriage doesn’t do that.

So once again, let’s review:

A valid marriage can only exist if it involves 1 man and 1 woman who

• are not validly married to another person
• are not too closely related
• gave their consent freely
• intend to be faithful
• intend it to be for life
• intend to have children, and, if one is Catholic
• followed the form required by the Church or had a dispensation from form.

Once a marriage is presumed valid, because none of the above is in question, it is deemed to be either “natural” (one or both of the partners is unbaptized) or “sacramental” (both are baptized).

Since we all know that the Catholic Church doesn’t consider same-sex unions valid marriages why would anyone think that she would consider them sacramental?

 

[Digitonomy]

Same-sex “marriage” did not exist when the Catechism of the Catholic Church was published 30+ years ago

Nitpick: The CCC was first promulgated in 1992, making it not quite 23 years old.

 

[Phemie]

Nitpick: The CCC was first promulgated in 1992, making it not quite 23 years old.

Oops, I was thinking of the year of the new Code of Canon Law.
Still, 23 years ago there wasn’t anywhere I know of that had legal same-sex unions.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Phemie;12657190]Same-sex “marriage” did not exist when the Catechism of the Catholic Church was published 30+ years ago so there was no need for the Catechism to address it.

Thank you; That brings my whole point here to a conclusion. Because the CCC nor Vatican II did not address same sex marriages.

We have to proclaim the Church’s teaching of marriage in every age and in every changing of the times.

That is why discernment must take place in order to address all non-Catholic Churches in our present time whether or not a non-Catholic marriage is defined as the Catholic Church teaches what constitutes a marriage as sacramental, union, natural, same sex , unlawful, lawful in the eyes of God.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Nitpick: The CCC was first promulgated in 1992, making it not quite 23 years old.

I am guilty as charged of the Nitpick in order to justify the diverse subject matter of non-Catholic marriages, which the CCC does not address in our present age.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

SMHW;12656960]I’m not sure why you would think that that some posters would think the Catholic Church recognizes same-sex unions as sacramental when the Church is clear that she doesn’t even recognize such unions as marriages.

Not same sex unions, but marriages taken place in all non-Catholic Church’s which include same sex unions taken place in non-Catholic Church’s.

Can you answer the following non-Catholic church question? The Anglican and Lutheran’s also recognize a sacramental marriage, yet some have allowed same sex marriage in their communities**. How would you address the Anglican and Lutheran sacramental marriages of same sex unions? Do you consider these marriages by non-Catholic Church’s as sacramental?** Yet these are considered non-Catholic church’s under the OP context.

There are certain conditions for valid marriages that apply to EVERYONE, Catholic or otherwise. There must be exactly two persons of opposite sex, the parties must be of a certain age, they cannot be validly married to another (living) person, they must freely exchange consent, they must willingly accept children, they must intend to be faithful to each other, they cannot be too closely related…

Yes and I applaud you for clarifying this reality that exist in non-Catholic marriages and unions.

No one is suggesting the Church overlooks those requirements for non-Catholics to have a valid and possibly sacramental marriage

.

I sure hope so and I am glad you make that point here. Without your point, the OP remains vague.

All we’ve ever said is that IF non-Catholics are validly married AND IF they are both validly baptized, THEN their marriage must be sacramental.

Then you have implied a condition for non-Catholic Church marriages to be sacramental. BUT, the thread did not address non-Catholic Church’s view of a marriage by same sex partners, non-Catholic natural marriages etc… which the Catholic Church does not recognize these non-Catholic marriages as a sacramental marriage.

 

[clem456]

Not same sex unions, but marriages taken place in all non-Catholic Church’s which include same sex unions taken place in non-Catholic Church’s.

Can you answer the following non-Catholic church question? The Anglican and Lutheran’s also recognize a sacramental marriage, yet some have allowed same sex marriage in their communities**. How would you address the Anglican and Lutheran sacramental marriages of same sex unions? Do you consider these marriages by non-Catholic Church’s as sacramental?** Yet these are considered non-Catholic church’s under the OP context.

No a same sex union cannot be sacramental by definition. A sacrament is an expression of a deeper reality, not a pretense. A sacrament is a participation in the life of God, which expresses a mystery and affects the very reality it expresses.
Theology of the Body by John Paul 2 has a great explanation of sacramentalism.
The marriage of a man and woman is the primordial sacrament.

 

[KjetilK]

Hello, I was wondering if a marriage is still considered a sacramental marriage when say two baptized Christians get married in say a Lutheran church? And, can anyone marry someone else? I know anyone can baptize another person and that we consider other Christians to have valid baptisms and marriages. I was just wondering if the marriage is considered sacramental. Thanks.

If the two persons aren’t Roman Catholics, or if they have been granted a dispensation from form from a bishop, their marriage is considered a sacrament, AFAIK.

Catholics must be married according to the Catholic form.

Or get a dispensation.

 

[KjetilK]

First, the Lutherans do not have a Church, they are an ecclesial community. The only True Churches are the ones which retain all four Marks: one, holy, catholic and apostolic.

Only those Lutheran churches that haven’t retained, or regained, the historic episcopate.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No a same sex union cannot be sacramental by definition. A sacrament is an expression of a deeper reality, not a pretense. A sacrament is a participation in the life of God, which expresses a mystery and affects the very reality it expresses.
Theology of the Body by John Paul 2 has a great explanation of sacramentalism.
The marriage of a man and woman is the primordial sacrament.

Understood. Do you deny that these same sex unions are not taking place in NON-CATHOLIC CHURCH’S? Which is recognized by these non-Catholic Church’s as a marriage.