Marriage as Sacrament or Covenant

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Irishgal49

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Hi all,

I have trouble believing marriage is a sacrament. I have been studying Theoligy of the Body and read the whole thing. Surprisingly it made it worse because I kept reading “Jesus never said this but we infer it” which makes me shake my head. Are there other documents that teach more on marriage as a sacrament. I am just not there yet. I have serious trust issues with authority due to excessive abuse. After 7 years of therapy I am better but scars are there that keep me from buying anything that contradicts my common sense or can’t be shown to me. I need to see it and research it for myself.

Thanks,

Lorrie
 
Marriage is both a sacrament and a covenant. However, it doesn’t magically transform the participants into good spouses. They are still human and prone to the struggles of all people.

You don’t say what your therapy was for, but it is possible that past experience has colored your view to prevent you seeing this truth clearly. If that is the case, you, more than others, are dependent upon accepting the judgement of the Church on this issue in spite of your misgivings.

If it helps, every Church with valid Apostolic succession (incl. the Orthodox Churches) has a Sacramental understanding of marriage and it has been discussed similarly by the Early Church Fathers. Therefore, this teaching comes from the Apostles, themselves. That a particular saying of Jesus has not been interpreted as directly upholding the Sacramentality of Matrimony does not negate that.
 
It starts with accepting that the Catholic Church is the one true church, and that the Church has the authority (magisterium) to teach and determine all matters of the faith.

The Catholic Church believes marriage is more than a natural institution; it was elevated by Christ Himself, in His participation in the wedding at Cana (John 2:1-11), to be one of the seven sacraments.
 
Nothing is a sacrament until the church declares it so.
The early church fathers elevated marriage to the status of sacrament, and declared it a holy thing.

I mean…there isn’t much more proof than that I don’t think. It’s like if I name my cat Oreo, and someone wants proof that his name is Oreo. Well, I’m the one that defines what my cats will be called, I’m the only one that has authority to do that. 🙂 The same way the church defines what a sacrament is. 🙂 Know what I mean? The church didn’t invent marriage, but declared it a sacrament.

Here’s a wiki page that goes in to some detail on what early church fathers said about marriage:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_marriage
The Council of Florence, in the Decree for the Armenians, had already declared: "The seventh sacrament is matrimony, which is a figure of the union of Christ, and the Church, according to the words of the Apostle. Innocent IV, in the profession of faith prescribed for the Waldensians (18 December, 1208), includes matrimony among the sacraments.
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mfrances said:
The Catholic Church believes marriage is more than a natural institution; it was elevated by Christ Himself, in His participation in the wedding at Cana (John 2:1-11), to be one of the seven sacraments.
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I always thought that that was a bit of a stretch. I see the point of that story to be both apocalyptic and pointing out Mary’s role as mediatrix.

Nothing is said of the wedding itself or Jesus’ role so I’m not sure how people read that into it.
 
I sincerely thank you for the responses. I cannot accept things without seeing them first and some of these references are good. In answer to one poster I was horribly abused by my dad and I have a couple of mental illnesses to boot. Some people at my church avoid me but quite a few understand my issues and are really nice. I have a very deep self loathing and when some misunderstand me, I beat up on myself and become angry. I want to believe, but it’s harder. I don’t mind that…just feel so totally alone. Thanks for talking to me. I don’t mean to be rebellious, but I’m sure some don’t believe me.

Lorrie

Lorrie
 
Have you tried reading through the section in the Catechism on marriage?

CCC 1601-1666

Perhaps that would make things more understandable. If it makes things more confusing, you can always come back and ask for clarification. :o
 
I didn’t mean to pry, sorry. Abuses like what you describe happened to you can be especially damaging to your view on all relationships, including marriage. It is possible that you will never understand.

You can still accept that the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, teaches correctly even though you don’t understand. Remember that another name for “Sacrament” is “Mystery” - something to be discovered. It isn’t necessarily to be discovered by everyone in this life, however.
 
Irishgal49 said:
Hi all,

I have trouble believing marriage is a sacrament. I have been studying Theoligy of the Body and read the whole thing. Surprisingly it made it worse because I kept reading “Jesus never said this but we infer it” which makes me shake my head. Are there other documents that teach more on marriage as a sacrament. I am just not there yet. I have serious trust issues with authority due to excessive abuse. After 7 years of therapy I am better but scars are there that keep me from buying anything that contradicts my common sense or can’t be shown to me. I need to see it and research it for myself.

Thanks,

Lorrie
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My dear Lorrie,

The only things you know of which Jesus said are the things that the Church has TOLD you that Jesus said.

That’s because Jesus Himself never authored a book, nor commanded one be writtten. What He did was empower His church with the authority to teach true doctrine infallibly. The idea of “Roma locuta est, causa finita est” (Rome has spoken, the case is closed) applies to more than just magisterial teachings since the canon was finalized… it applies to the CANON itself! Without the authority of Rome, we have no assertion of the authority of anything scriptural (particularly with the new testament). In other words, the very words of Christ that you have read are asserted as true by the same authority (the church) that you’re now seeming to struggle against!

So while Jesus may never have explicitly said anything about marriage as a sacrament which we have WRITTEN DOWN in an admittedly limited canon, that does NOT mean that what we have written down is anywhere NEAR approaching the sum of our experience of divine revelation and experience of God… and the locus of that revelation is the church, whose job and authority it is to teach true doctrine on behalf of God.

Roma locuta est, causa finita est!

As further reading, you might also consider humanae vitae, the catholic encyclopedia, or the catechism.
 
Actaeon said:
My dear Lorrie,

In other words, the very words of Christ that you have read are asserted as true by the same authority (the church) that you’re now seeming to struggle against!
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That’s powerful and makes me feel a little silly. In reading here are my struggles specifically. It has to do with the definition of a sacrament:
  1. Visible Sign
  2. Instituted by Christ
  3. Administered by the Church
  4. Confers grace/means of grace
  5. Church has form/matter (can’t remember how he worded it but this is from memory so forgive my sloppiness)
We know Jesus didn’t institute marriage but we’re talking about a sacrament. I agree that Jesus certainly elevated marriage from the legal business transaction of it’s day to something holier (a return to that pre-sin place when man and woman were pure in intentions) but one could argue that’s as much covenant as sacrament and could, in fact, say that nowhere does it say that this is a sacrament in the life of Jesus. The Eucharist, very obvious. Baptism (He certainly didn’t need to be baptized) obvious. Confession, obvious and onward. He even ordained the Disciples…but marriage? I just don’t see it.

The other piece is visible sign? JPII says in Theology of the Body that the “words” the couple speaks are the sign. Now this is where I disagree. I see that as form/matter not as visible sign or can it be both? As I was typing this I just realized that Confession must have words as it’s visible sign, what else would be a visible sign??? OK so that could work and I feel like I’m making progress in understanding the Catholic definition of what constitutes a Sacrament. I went to Protestant seminary before conversion and we were told that it must be an outward visible sign symbolizing an inward spiritual grace. I was told it had to be something that Jesus did because we all know he didn’t need baptism or anything else, he merely did it to show us.

Last question–why isn’t foot washing a sacrament. If there was ever something Jesus told us to do, it was that. He said we should do this for each other.

Thanks, I’m reading that Catechism now,

Lorrie
 
SonCatcher said:
I didn’t mean to pry, sorry. Abuses like what you describe happened to you can be especially damaging to your view on all relationships, including marriage. It is possible that you will never understand.

You can still accept that the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, teaches correctly even though you don’t understand. Remember that another name for “Sacrament” is “Mystery” - something to be discovered. It isn’t necessarily to be discovered by everyone in this life, however.
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Thanks for such a caring and compassionate answer. It’s all mystery if we’re honest. I just have such a hard time surrendering, I feel so freaked out, like I’m being duped or joining a cult, both of which I know are NOT true. I have never been able to step over that line. Like St Augustine when he would contemplate conversion (one of his many times he tried to make the leap of faith) he would wrestle, “Why can’t I just step across the line? Why can’t I just do it?” That’s sort of what it’s like for me. It’s trust…I am afraid of being a fool.
 
From www.usccb.org Matrimony:

Sacred Scripture begins with the creation and union of man and woman and ends with “the wedding feast of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7, 9). Scripture often refers to marriage, its origin and purpose, the meaning God gave to it, and its renewal in the covenant made by Jesus with his Church.

God created man and woman out of love and commanded them to imitate his love in their relations with each other. Man and woman were created for each other. “It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him. . . . The two of them become one body” (Gn 2:18; 24). Woman and man are equal in human dignity, and in marriage both are united in an unbreakable bond.

Jesus brought to full awareness the divine plan for marriage. In John’s Gospel, Christ’s first miracle occurs at the wedding in Cana. “The Church attaches great importance to Jesus’ presence at the wedding at Cana. She sees in it the confirmation of the goodness of marriage and the proclamation that thenceforth marriage will be an efficacious sign of Christ’s presence” (CCC, no. 1613).

*By their marriage, the couple witnesses Christ’s spousal love for the Church. One of the Nuptial Blessings in the liturgical celebration of marriage refers to this in saying, “Father, you have made the union of man and wife so holy a mystery that it symbolizes the marriage of Christ and his Church.” *

The Sacrament of Marriage is a covenant, which is more than a contract. Covenant always expresses a relationship between persons. The marriage covenant refers to the relationship between the husband and wife, a permanent union of persons capable of knowing and loving each other and God.
Indeed, a sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace.

For me, married 48 years, I took great meaning in “the two shall become one.” That is NOT two halves that can be separated, but one whole.

I also took great meaning in knowing that Christ’s FIRST miracle was His Blessing of the Wedding.

I forget where but recall that Christ spoke of the hard heartedness that forced Moses to allow divorce. But Christ said, “What God has joined together, let no man put asunder.”

Marriage is a Sacrament WHEN it is blest by Christ. I will not speak against other Christian faiths, but I am sure that a Catholic Marriage is indeed a Sacrament.
 
I realize that “marriage” is on the ropes these days. Way too many divorces, broken homes, and children not sure they have what they are suppose to have = a loving mother and father who truly WANT to raise children as best they can.

The temptations of this seemingly self-centered, affulent world blinds many to the true meaning of Love. Seeing so many divorces creates fear and perhaps the inability to FULLY COMMIT to a life long marriage. Trying to do life without a strong commitment to God is foolhardly.

True love requires the lover to subordinate his or her’s personal desires in favor of fulfilling the needs and desires of the loved one.

Our first duty is to love God. Do I willingly subordinate my desires so that I always put God first? When I do not, do I realize I have sinned and seek forgiveness in Confession and ask for God’s Grace to do better?

Our second duty is to love others for the love of God. Do I put my wife and children ahead of me? And in, turn, do they put me ahead of them? I take care of them and they take care of me, all in considerate ways. Of course, given the first requirement to love God, I am always praying for His help in loving Him, my wife, my family, and others.

My wife and I had such discussions BEFORE we married. Romance is not matrial love. Maritial love is communication and lasting commitment to each other. We had reasons to believe each of us spoke from our heart. I asked her if she could see us at age 85 looking back over the life we shared and being happy we shared it together, come what may. She said she wasn’t willing to rush it, but yes, she looked forward to age 85 with me. 17 years more to go. We still date.

I firmly believe our Catholic marriage is indeed blest by God and it is a true Sacrament.
 
Irishgal49 said:
Thanks for such a caring and compassionate answer. It’s all mystery if we’re honest. I just have such a hard time surrendering, I feel so freaked out, like I’m being duped or joining a cult, both of which I know are NOT true. I have never been able to step over that line. Like St Augustine when he would contemplate conversion (one of his many times he tried to make the leap of faith) he would wrestle, “Why can’t I just step across the line? Why can’t I just do it?” That’s sort of what it’s like for me. It’s trust…I am afraid of being a fool.
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Better a fool for Christ than a fool for the world. 🙂
 
Irishgal49 said:
That’s powerful and makes me feel a little silly. In reading here are my struggles specifically. It has to do with the definition of a sacrament:
  1. Visible Sign
  2. Instituted by Christ
  3. Administered by the Church
  4. Confers grace/means of grace
  5. Church has form/matter (can’t remember how he worded it but this is from memory so forgive my sloppiness)
We know Jesus didn’t institute marriage but we’re talking about a sacrament. I agree that Jesus certainly elevated marriage from the legal business transaction of it’s day to something holier (a return to that pre-sin place when man and woman were pure in intentions) but one could argue that’s as much covenant as sacrament and could, in fact, say that nowhere does it say that this is a sacrament in the life of Jesus. The Eucharist, very obvious. Baptism (He certainly didn’t need to be baptized) obvious. Confession, obvious and onward. He even ordained the Disciples…but marriage? I just don’t see it.

The other piece is visible sign? JPII says in Theology of the Body that the “words” the couple speaks are the sign. Now this is where I disagree. I see that as form/matter not as visible sign or can it be both? As I was typing this I just realized that Confession must have words as it’s visible sign, what else would be a visible sign??? OK so that could work and I feel like I’m making progress in understanding the Catholic definition of what constitutes a Sacrament. I went to Protestant seminary before conversion and we were told that it must be an outward visible sign symbolizing an inward spiritual grace. I was told it had to be something that Jesus did because we all know he didn’t need baptism or anything else, he merely did it to show us.

Last question–why isn’t foot washing a sacrament. If there was ever something Jesus told us to do, it was that. He said we should do this for each other.

Thanks, I’m reading that Catechism now,

Lorrie
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There can be some overlap between the sign and form/matter. For example, with baptism, water is both the sign and the matter.
 
SonCatcher said:
There can be some overlap between the sign and form/matter. For example, with baptism, water is both the sign and the matter.
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YES, that makes total sense. OK that helps a lot because I was confused on that.
 
GratefulFred said:
From www.usccb.org Matrimony:

Sacred Scripture begins with the creation and union of man and woman and ends with “the wedding feast of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7, 9). Scripture often refers to marriage, its origin and purpose, the meaning God gave to it, and its renewal in the covenant made by Jesus with his Church.

God created man and woman out of love and commanded them to imitate his love in their relations with each other. Man and woman were created for each other. “It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him. . . . The two of them become one body” (Gn 2:18; 24). Woman and man are equal in human dignity, and in marriage both are united in an unbreakable bond.

Jesus brought to full awareness the divine plan for marriage. In John’s Gospel, Christ’s first miracle occurs at the wedding in Cana. “The Church attaches great importance to Jesus’ presence at the wedding at Cana. She sees in it the confirmation of the goodness of marriage and the proclamation that thenceforth marriage will be an efficacious sign of Christ’s presence” (CCC, no. 1613).

*By their marriage, the couple witnesses Christ’s spousal love for the Church. One of the Nuptial Blessings in the liturgical celebration of marriage refers to this in saying, “Father, you have made the union of man and wife so holy a mystery that it symbolizes the marriage of Christ and his Church.” *

The Sacrament of Marriage is a covenant, which is more than a contract. Covenant always expresses a relationship between persons. The marriage covenant refers to the relationship between the husband and wife, a permanent union of persons capable of knowing and loving each other and God.
Indeed, a sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace.

For me, married 48 years, I took great meaning in “the two shall become one.” That is NOT two halves that can be separated, but one whole.

I also took great meaning in knowing that Christ’s FIRST miracle was His Blessing of the Wedding.

I forget where but recall that Christ spoke of the hard heartedness that forced Moses to allow divorce. But Christ said, “What God has joined together, let no man put asunder.”

Marriage is a Sacrament WHEN it is blest by Christ. I will not speak against other Christian faiths, but I am sure that a Catholic Marriage is indeed a Sacrament.
Click to expand...
That’s beautiful. Too bad all the great men like you seem to be gone. Thanks for sharing such a beautiful understanding of marriage.
 
Irishgal49 said:
Hi all,

I have trouble believing marriage is a sacrament. I have been studying Theoligy of the Body and read the whole thing. Surprisingly it made it worse because I kept reading “Jesus never said this but we infer it” which makes me shake my head. Are there other documents that teach more on marriage as a sacrament. I am just not there yet. I have serious trust issues with authority due to excessive abuse. After 7 years of therapy I am better but scars are there that keep me from buying anything that contradicts my common sense or can’t be shown to me. I need to see it and research it for myself.

Thanks,

Lorrie
Click to expand...
Before I was a Christian, I almost didn’t become Catholic because at the time that I was thinking of converting I hated my father (he is Catholic) for what I felt like was a rejection of me and my brother when we were growing up. But I felt the Holy Spirit drawing me to the one true Church and realized that it was silly to blame the Church for my bad relationship I had with my father. And I realized that by not following my heart and the prompting of the Holy Spirit into the Catholic Church I would only be cheating myself.

After joining the Church, I learned Christian values of things like how we are supposed to love our enemies and honor our parents. I learned that holding on to hate wasn’t good for me. And the Church is a hospital for sinners, like myself, Christ is the physician, and the sacraments are the spiritual medicine. So I reconciled with my father, and although we aren’t close and probably never will be, I don’t hate him anymore. Here’s a question. Do you have any trouble believing that baptism is a sacrament?
 
livingwordunity said:
Before I was a Christian, I almost didn’t become Catholic because at the time that I was thinking of converting I hated my father (he is Catholic) for what I felt like was a rejection of me and my brother when we were growing up. But I felt the Holy Spirit drawing me to the one true Church and realized that it was silly to blame the Church for my bad relationship I had with my father. And I realized that by not following my heart and the prompting of the Holy Spirit into the Catholic Church I would only be cheating myself.

After joining the Church, I learned Christian values of things like how we are supposed to love our enemies and honor our parents. I learned that holding on to hate wasn’t good for me. And the Church is a hospital for sinners, like myself, Christ is the physician, and the sacraments are the spiritual medicine. So I reconciled with my father, and although we aren’t close and probably never will be, I don’t hate him anymore. Here’s a question. Do you have any trouble believing that baptism is a sacrament?
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No I don’t. Jesus modeled that one and I hope we all agree He certainly wasn’t in need of baptism, so it was a model for us of what He wanted us to do. Thanks for all you shared and everything that everyone has said. It was very kindly stated and very supportive.

Thanks so much.
 
Don’t under estimate the power of prayer and patience.

Trust God and His timing.

Keep praying constantly.
 
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