Marriage as Sacrament?

[LutheranDK]

Hi all!

I noticed this answer by Pastor Serpa to someone asking a question as to whether or not a marriage between baptized persons is valid, even if it took place outside the RCC:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?threadid=461534

My question is this: If it is as Pastor Serpa says, and the marriage in question is a sacrament…would that not, from an RC point of view, mean that the Lutheran Pastor who performed the ceremony was able to confer the Sacrament upon the two? And how does that square with the RC teaching that non-RC Sacraments (excluding the EO) are invalid, because the priests are not actually priests, and thus cannot confer any Sacrament upon anyone?

 

[Bookcat]

Hi all!

I noticed this answer by Pastor Serpa to someone asking a question as to whether or not a marriage between baptized persons is valid, even if it took place outside the RCC:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?threadid=461534

My question is this: If it is as Pastor Serpa says, and the marriage in question is a sacrament…would that not, from an RC point of view, mean that the Lutheran Pastor who performed the ceremony was able to confer the Sacrament upon the two? And how does that square with the RC teaching that non-RC Sacraments (excluding the EO) are invalid, because the priests are not actually priests, and thus cannot confer any Sacrament upon anyone?

The Catholic Church recognizes that the Baptism is valid in Lutheran communities…

A marriage between two Validly Baptized Christians is thus presumed by us to be Valid (unless there is some other impediment) …it is not the Lutheran Minister who “confers” the Sacrament of Marriage but the two Baptized Christians…(in the Roman Rite too of the Catholic Church…the Sacrament of Marriage is also conferred by the spouses upon each other…the Priest witnesses and blesses them etc)

We recognize the Baptisms of most other Christians…and thus that they can confer the Sacrament of Marriage upon each other as well…

We recognize all the Sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox…

(PS …I would prefer if those who post called us “the Catholic Church” …for not all Catholics in the Catholic Church are of the Roman Church and rite…there are 20 some odd other Churches and various rites…though I am Roman…the Church is not all Roman)

 

[puzzleannie]

Hi all!

I noticed this answer by Pastor Serpa to someone asking a question as to whether or not a marriage between baptized persons is valid, even if it took place outside the RCC:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?threadid=461534

My question is this: If it is as Pastor Serpa says, and the marriage in question is a sacrament…would that not, from an RC point of view, mean that the Lutheran Pastor who performed the ceremony was able to confer the Sacrament upon the two? And how does that square with the RC teaching that non-RC Sacraments (excluding the EO) are invalid, because the priests are not actually priests, and thus cannot confer any Sacrament upon anyone?

the actual teaching is that only priests ordained in direct line from the apostles can validly confect the Eucharist and absolve sins and anoint the sick. Only bishops in that line, or those they delegate, can confirm and only the bishop may ordain to sacred orders. (note some of these are sacraments many Protestant denominations do not even recognize as sacraments). In Roman Catholic theology the husband and wives are ministers of the sacrament of matrimony to each other with the priest or deacon as the official witness of the Church. Also, the bishop, priest or deacon is the ordinary minister of baptism, but in case of emergency anyone, even a non-Catholic, may validly baptize if they use the correct matter and form and intend what the Church intends in baptism (even if they don’t fully understand it). That is why the Catholic Church recognizes as valid baptisms performed by non-Catholic Christian ministers as long as the rite is done properly, and why she recognizes that marriages between two baptized persons–even those witnessed by a non-ordained minister or even civil official–are both valid and sacramental.

 

[Moscati]

In short, their marriage is valid because the Sacrament of Matrimony is not conferred by a priest–the spouses confer it upon each other, with the minister serving as a witness. The theology is different.

 

[VetA]

Hi all!

I noticed this answer by Pastor Serpa to someone asking a question as to whether or not a marriage between baptized persons is valid, even if it took place outside the RCC:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?threadid=461534

My question is this: If it is as Pastor Serpa says, and the marriage in question is a sacrament…would that not, from an RC point of view, mean that the Lutheran Pastor who performed the ceremony was able to confer the Sacrament upon the two? And how does that square with the RC teaching that non-RC Sacraments (excluding the EO) are invalid, because the priests are not actually priests, and thus cannot confer any Sacrament upon anyone?

priests or deacons are there to make sure the proper form is followed, the husband and wife are the ones conferring the sacrament on each other.

its Father Serpa by the way. catholic priests are called Father (insert name here) or Monsignor (assuming they have earned that title)

 

[choy]

wait, the witness is important to with the validity of the Sacrament, if i’m not mistaken

for a wedding to be recognized as a Sacramental Marriage in the Catholic Church, it must conform to the requirements of the Church, and that is the man and woman confer the Sacrament to each other in the presence of a witness of the Church (the CCC didn’t mention who the witness specifically is. is this mentioned in another document? is it possible that a bishop appoint a non-Ordained witness?)

 

[1ke]

wait, the witness is important to with the validity of the Sacrament, if i’m not mistaken

If either party is Catholic, they must be married in the Catholic form or dispensed from it by the Bishop.

for a wedding to be recognized as a Sacramental Marriage in the Catholic Church, it must conform to the requirements of the Church, and that is the man and woman confer the Sacrament to each other in the presence of a witness of the Church

If either party is Catholic, this is correct. Non-Catholics are not bound to the Catholic form of marriage.

the CCC didn’t mention who the witness specifically is. is this mentioned in another document?

Yes. Canon Law governs the Sacraments.

Regarding witnessing the marriage specifically, see these canons:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P40.HTM

is it possible that a bishop appoint a non-Ordained witness?

yes, under the circumstances mentioned in the above canons. It would be in an extreme circumstance when no priest is available-- for example, perhaps in a mission territory.

 

[LutheranDK]

Thank you for all your answers

 

[PacoG]

Hi all!

I noticed this answer by Pastor Serpa to someone asking a question as to whether or not a marriage between baptized persons is valid, even if it took place outside the RCC

The correct title for priests is “Father.” If you feel uncomfortable with referring to a priest as Father, you may refer to him as “Reverend.”

Unlike in the Lutheran Church, “Pastor” is not a title in the Catholic Church. Pastor is a position. A pastor is a priest or bishop (in some cases with some auxillary bishops in some dioceses) who has been given the care of a particular parish.

All pastors are priests but not all priests are pastors. Some priests are parochial vicars, rectors of shrines, chaplains in hospitals, college professors, etc., or do not do parish work (like the priests on EWTN). So referring to a Catholic priest as “Pastor” is inaccurate. It would be like referring to a member of the United States House of Representatives as an MP.

 

[VetA]

its Father Serpa by the way. catholic priests are called Father (insert name here) or Monsignor (assuming they have earned that title)

The correct title for priests is “Father.” If you feel uncomfortable with referring to a priest as Father, you may refer to him as “Reverend.”

Unlike in the Lutheran Church, “Pastor” is not a title in the Catholic Church. Pastor is a position. A pastor is a priest or bishop (in some cases with some auxillary bishops in some dioceses) who has been given the care of a particular parish.

All pastors are priests but not all priests are pastors. Some priests are parochial vicars, rectors of shrines, chaplains in hospitals, college professors, etc., or do not do parish work (like the priests on EWTN). So referring to a Catholic priest as “Pastor” is inaccurate. It would be like referring to a member of the United States House of Representatives as an MP.

Thanks for the more complete explination

 

[Joe_Kelley]

wait, the witness is important to with the validity of the Sacrament, if i’m not mistaken

for a wedding to be recognized as a Sacramental Marriage in the Catholic Church, it must conform to the requirements of the Church, and that is the man and woman confer the Sacrament to each other in the presence of a witness of the Church (the CCC didn’t mention who the witness specifically is. is this mentioned in another document? is it possible that a bishop appoint a non-Ordained witness?)

Can. 1112 §1. Where there is a lack of priests and deacons, the diocesan bishop can delegate lay persons to assist at marriages, with the previous favorable vote of the conference of bishops and after he has obtained the permission of the Holy See.
§2. A suitable lay person is to be selected, who is capable of giving instruction to those preparing to be married and able to perform the matrimonial liturgy properly.

I think the bishop can permit a non-Catholic cleric to be the witness for just cause. I don’t think the permission is easily given. The example I have seen is the bride is the daughter of a non-catholic cleric and has always planned to be married by her father.

 

[Digitonomy]

…it is not the Lutheran Minister who “confers” the Sacrament of Marriage but the two Baptized Christians…(in the Roman Rite too of the Catholic Church…the Sacrament of Marriage is also conferred by the spouses upon each other…the Priest witnesses and blesses them etc)

I’m glad you mentioned that this understanding is characteristic of the Latin church. How do the Eastern churches deal with this situation? Is it a matter of oikonomia?

 

[1ke]

I think the bishop can permit a non-Catholic cleric to be the witness for just cause. I don’t think the permission is easily given. The example I have seen is the bride is the daughter of a non-catholic cleric and has always planned to be married by her father.

Joe, the situation you list above would not fall under Canon 1112. In that case, it is a Catholic designated as a lay witness to the marriage.

In the case of a non-Catholic, it would be a dispensation from form which is a different canon entirely. The Catholic and non-Catholic would then be married by the Lutheran minister. It is not difficult to obtain such permission.