Marriage at a courthouse and its validity

[yellowcat]

I was told that a marriage by a judge at a courthouse is considered invalid in the eyes of God and the Catholic church…So does this mean even if the man was married for 10 years and had three children during that marriage it’s still considered an invalid marriage?

Also…if he gets divorced then wants to marry again in a Catholic Church can he do that without having to get the marriage annuled first?

 

[LilyM]

Depends on several factors - most important is whether one or both partners were Catholic at the time of marriage. Obviously if neither partner is Catholic at the time of marriage, the Church cannot reasonably expect them to have been married in a Catholic church.

In some such circumstances even civil marriages (eg in front of a judge) can be recognised By the Church, and therefore there would need to be annulment for some. Not all, though, and I’d think not most of 'em.

The number of children and length of the relationship of course doesn’t matter - after all, a married person can have an extramarital affair lasting years and resulting in children, wouldn’t make him or her any more married to their partner in adultery in God’s eyes.

Bear in mind if the couple thought they married validly, then the fact that it’s not a valid marriage in the eyes the Church doesn’t bear on the children - they are still considered legitimate in the eyes of the Church.

For we Catholics, marriage is more than just a legally binding commitment to be made in front of a judge. It is a sacrament - a God-given and lifelong seal set on the relationship between two people. For this reason it needs to occur in front of a priest or deacon.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I was told that a marriage by a judge at a courthouse is considered invalid in the eyes of God and the Catholic church…So does this mean even if the man was married for 10 years and had three children during that marriage it’s still considered an invalid marriage?

Also…if he gets divorced then wants to marry again in a Catholic Church can he do that without having to get the marriage annuled first?

It most likely would not be valid if either person were Catholic. However since it was an attempted marriage on the “public record” it would need to be investigated and found so officially by the Marriage Tribunal before he could attempt Marriage again.

 

[1ke]

I was told that a marriage by a judge at a courthouse is considered invalid in the eyes of God and the Catholic church…So does this mean even if the man was married for 10 years and had three children during that marriage it’s still considered an invalid marriage?

This is true only if one or both parties were baptized Catholics and they did not have permission (called a dispensation) to do so.

If the parties were not Catholic at the time of the marriage, then the marriage is presumed valid. If both parties were non-Catholic baptized individuals, then the marriage is also sacramental.

The length of time and number of children are not relevant to validity. Validity has nothing to do with what transpired after the marriage was contracted, but with the consent and intent at the time of marriage.

The details of the situation should be discussed with a priest as soon as possible. These are only the most general guidelines. Each marriage case is specific and unique and cannot be evaluated here on this forum.

Also…if he gets divorced then wants to marry again in a Catholic Church can he do that without having to get the marriage annuled first?

No.

All prior bonds must be investigated by the competent Church authorities.

Talk to a priest ASAP.

 

[puzzleannie]

I was told that a marriage by a judge at a courthouse is considered invalid in the eyes of God and the Catholic church…So does this mean even if the man was married for 10 years and had three children during that marriage it’s still considered an invalid marriage?

Also…if he gets divorced then wants to marry again in a Catholic Church can he do that without having to get the marriage annuled first?

Catholic laws on marriage are binding on Catholics only. Two non-Catholics who are otherwise free to marry are considered to have a valid marriage no matter who witnessed it or where. If they are both baptized, the marriage is also sacramental.

If in the example in OP it was a Catholic who contracted a civil marriage then the marriage is probably invalid for lack of form. He should take steps to convalidate the marriage as soon as possible so he can return to the sacraments and full communion with the Church and raise his children Catholic. If the marriage has since been ruptured by a civil divorce, before he can marry again or even date he must explain the complete situation to his pastor, including relevant paperwork, complete an intervew and submit it for investigation. In that case it will probably not require a full tribunal investigation, but each marriage case is unique and it is impossible to give more than a general answer here. His next stop is his pastor’s office. No, the decision will have no effect whatever on the status of the children.

“I was told” is not a good guide to understanding Catholic canon law unless the person who told you was a priest, bishop or canon lawyer in full possession of all the facts about your situation.

 

[triciamarie]

Hi All,

I just received a letter from our church stating their records show we were Not married in the Catholic Church. We are living in a Civil Marriage and states If we want to have our Marriage Validated we can take a Marrigae Validation Course. What is a Marriage Validation Course? I know the Church means to Marry by Church. We’ve been together for almost 9 yrs and married for almost 7yrs and 2 children. I read somewhere that marriage is performed during mass or we can have a private ceremony is this correct?

Thanks,
Tricia Marie

 

[1ke]

Hi All,

I just received a letter from our church stating their records show we were Not married in the Catholic Church. We are living in a Civil Marriage and states If we want to have our Marriage Validated we can take a Marrigae Validation Course. What is a Marriage Validation Course? I know the Church means to Marry by Church. We’ve been together for almost 9 yrs and married for almost 7yrs and 2 children. I read somewhere that marriage is performed during mass or we can have a private ceremony is this correct?

Thanks,
Tricia Marie

Go talk to your priest. Yes, you can have your marriage convalidated in a private ceremony.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Hi All,

I just received a letter from our church stating their records show we were Not married in the Catholic Church. We are living in a Civil Marriage and states If we want to have our Marriage Validated we can take a Marrigae Validation Course. What is a Marriage Validation Course? I know the Church means to Marry by Church. We’ve been together for almost 9 yrs and married for almost 7yrs and 2 children. I read somewhere that marriage is performed during mass or we can have a private ceremony is this correct?

Thanks,
Tricia Marie

Convalidation is not usually during a Mass

The Convalidation class is about understanding exactly what the Catholic Church requires of Catholics and teaches about Marriage.

 

[puzzleannie]

I was told that a marriage by a judge at a courthouse is considered invalid in the eyes of God and the Catholic church…So does this mean even if the man was married for 10 years and had three children during that marriage it’s still considered an invalid marriage?

Also…if he gets divorced then wants to marry again in a Catholic Church can he do that without having to get the marriage annuled first?

key pieces of info are lacking, namely were both parties otherwise free to marry, and was either party Catholic at the time of the marriage. Each marriage situation is unique, and all the facts should be presented to the pastor who will advise them how to proceed. sorry did not realize we were bumping an old thread.

 

[kleary]

I was told that a marriage by a judge at a courthouse is considered invalid in the eyes of God and the Catholic church…So does this mean even if the man was married for 10 years and had three children during that marriage it’s still considered an invalid marriage?

Also…if he gets divorced then wants to marry again in a Catholic Church can he do that without having to get the marriage annuled first?

If a Catholic goes and gets married via a judge at a courhouse it is indeed an invalid marriage because the Catholic MUST obey the laws of the Church in regards to the Sacrament of Matrimony. He cannot deviate from them and do otherwise for any reason whatsoever, even if his girlfriend is pregnant and needs medical benefits from his employer.

Even if the “marriage” goes 10 years and many children it is still invalid because the Catholic must have a Bishop, Priest or Deacon present at the Sacrament in order for it to be valid.

Please pray for my brother. About 7 years ago he did just this and his Catholic pastor is telling him otherwise, that his marriage is valid just that he needs to come and get it blessed at his convenience, and he is allowed to receive Holy Communion while he is waiting for it to happen. On that note please pray for his pastor for he will be in more trouble on judgement day than my brother.

Ken

 

[Titus]

If a Catholic goes and gets married via a judge at a courhouse it is indeed an invalid marriage because the Catholic MUST obey the laws of the Church in regards to the Sacrament of Matrimony. He cannot deviate from them and do otherwise for any reason whatsoever, even if his girlfriend is pregnant and needs medical benefits from his employer.

Even if the “marriage” goes 10 years and many children it is still invalid because the Catholic must have a Bishop, Priest or Deacon present at the Sacrament in order for it to be valid.

That’s not true. He may receive a dispensation from the competent ordinary to get married in another ceremony.

Please pray for my brother. About 7 years ago he did just this and his Catholic pastor is telling him otherwise, that his marriage is valid just that he needs to come and get it blessed at his convenience, and he is allowed to receive Holy Communion while he is waiting for it to happen. On that note please pray for his pastor for he will be in more trouble on judgement day than my brother.

Having it blessed is the erroneous but common term for convalidation. The problem is the ‘at convenience’ bit and the reception of communion, which is adding mortal sin to mortal sin (however, since your brother likely doesn’t know any better- that would deny the mortality of the sin).

Ken

 

[rwoehmke]

I think folks miss the point that as far as the state is concerned the marriage of a Catholic before a judge is a valid marriage assuming that state regulations have been met. Any children in those marriages considered invalid under Canon law are legitimate as legitimacy is determined by civil law not by canon law at least in this country. That is why legitimacy is not affected by a declaration of nullity by the Church.

 

[otjm]

I think folks miss the point that as far as the state is concerned the marriage of a Catholic before a judge is a valid marriage assuming that state regulations have been met. Any children in those marriages considered invalid under Canon law are legitimate as legitimacy is determined by civil law not by canon law at least in this country. That is why legitimacy is not affected by a declaration of nullity by the Church.

Agreed. It might be better, instead of using the term “invalid marriage” to use the term 'Sacrmental marriage", as the requirments for a Catholic to have a sacramental marriage include that it has to be done in the presence of an official witness of the Church (meaning a bishop, priest or deacon) and two other witnesses.

Too many people cross over the issues of validity, legitimacy, and civil and Church requirements. A Catholic is required to follow the rules of the Church; and failing to do that may result in a marriage in the eyes of the State, but a state of permanent continual fornication in the eyes of the Church.

 

[SingtotheLord]

Agreed. It might be better, instead of using the term “invalid marriage” to use the term 'Sacrmental marriage", as the requirments for a Catholic to have a sacramental marriage include that it has to be done in the presence of an official witness of the Church (meaning a bishop, priest or deacon) and two other witnesses.

Too many people cross over the issues of validity, legitimacy, and civil and Church requirements. A Catholic is required to follow the rules of the Church; and failing to do that may result in a marriage in the eyes of the State, but a state of permanent continual fornication in the eyes of the Church.

So if a Catholic decided she doesn’t want to be Catholic anymore & wants to get married then she can in a protestant ceremony? and it’s not a sin?

 

[1ke]

I think folks miss the point that as far as the state is concerned the marriage of a Catholic before a judge is a valid marriage assuming that state regulations have been met. Any children in those marriages considered invalid under Canon law are legitimate as legitimacy is determined by civil law not by canon law at least in this country. That is why legitimacy is not affected by a declaration of nullity by the Church.

Actually, legitimacy is addressed in Canon Law. It is not strictly a civil matter.

 

[1ke]

Agreed. It might be better, instead of using the term “invalid marriage” to use the term 'Sacrmental marriage", as the requirments for a Catholic to have a sacramental marriage include that it has to be done in the presence of an official witness of the Church (meaning a bishop, priest or deacon) and two other witnesses.

Too many people cross over the issues of validity, legitimacy, and civil and Church requirements. A Catholic is required to follow the rules of the Church; and failing to do that may result in a marriage in the eyes of the State, but a state of permanent continual fornication in the eyes of the Church.

I disagree that using the term Sacramental marriage is more precise. Specifically because one may have a valid marriage that is not a Sacrament if one follows all the guidelines and receives a dispensation to marry a non-baptized person. A convert validly married civilly or in their former faith tradition to a non-baptized person also has a valid marriage. The marriage is not sacramental.

The two terms are separate and distinct. And, each one has a specific meaning under Canon Law.

 

[1ke]

So if a Catholic decided she doesn’t want to be Catholic anymore & wants to get married then she can in a protestant ceremony? and it’s not a sin?

No, that is not correct.

A Catholic is bound by the Catholic form of marriage. Only a person who has formally defected, procedures are very specific in Canon Law, would no longer be bound by the Catholic form of marriage.

 

[kleary]

Originally Posted by kleary forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
If a Catholic goes and gets married via a judge at a courthouse it is indeed an invalid marriage because the Catholic MUST obey the laws of the Church in regards to the Sacrament of Matrimony. He cannot deviate from them and do otherwise for any reason whatsoever, even if his girlfriend is pregnant and needs medical benefits from his employer.

Even if the “marriage” goes 10 years and many children it is still invalid because the Catholic must have a Bishop, Priest or Deacon present at the Sacrament in order for it to be valid.

That’s not true. He may receive a dispensation from the competent ordinary to get married in another ceremony.

Please cite Canon Law or Church teaching in this regard. You sound like my brother’s parish that says they often give advice and permission to couples to go get married civilly and then come back to get the marriage blessed. I know they can “get married in another ceremony” but they need a requirement of a Bishop, Priest or Deacon present. An example is for a wedding between a Catholic and Protestant done in a Protestant Church with the Protestant minister officiating- it is valid as long as witnessed by a Bishop, Priest or Deacon and the dispensation from the Bishop is granted.

Ken

 

[kleary]

No, that is not correct.

A Catholic is bound by the Catholic form of marriage. Only a person who has formally defected, procedures are very specific in Canon Law, would no longer be bound by the Catholic form of marriage.

I do not think so, please recheck your sources. A Catholic can get a dispensation these days to marry in a Protestant ceremony (God forgive us) with a Catholic Bishop, Priest or Deacon present.

Ken

 

[cameron_lansing]

There are two different notions at work in this discussion that need to be explored: dispensation and exception. They are not the same, even though they would have the same net effect.

True, a dispensation can relax the law so that a non Catholic wedding ceremony can result in a valid marriage involving a Catholic. However, the presence of a Catholic cleric at a non Catholic wedding ceremony is not required as a prerequisite for the granting of the dispensation mentioned in canon 1127 or for validity once dispensation is given. (I would have no idea of a basis in canon law by which the necessary presence of a Catholic cleric at a non Catholic ceremony could be asserted.)

But it is also true that the law itself can except a Catholic from the requirement of canonical form. In such a case, there is no need of dispensation.

Now, the matrimonial law of the Church places 3 exceptions in the case of Catholics who have defected from the Church by a formal act. They relate to 1) the obligation of the canonical form of marriage for validity, 2) the invalidating impediment of disparity of cult, and 3) the prohibition against marrying a non Catholic without permission.

At the beginning though, it is necessary to recall that certain conditions and actions must be present for such a formal defection to occur. These should be viewed at clsa.org/content/node/184 before proceeding. That document will treat the details.

These canons and notions will be involved.

Unless there is a dispensation or exception in the law, Catholics must celebrate marriage according to the Catholic form of marriage, or the marriage is invalid (canons 1117 and 1108§1). The exception would be operative for the formally defected Catholic.

Unless there is a dispensation or exception in the law, Catholics cannot marry an unbaptized person, or the marriage is invalid (canon 1086 §1). The exception would be operative for the formally defected Catholic.

Unless there is a permission or exception in the law, a Catholic cannot marry a non Catholic, or the marriage is illicit, that is, contrary to canon law (canon 1124). Validity is not affected. The exception would be operative for the formally defected Catholic.