Marriage Betrayal and feeling hopeless

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I happen to believe what it says about leaving and cleaving also.
In the culture and time that directive was given, when a man married, his wife moved into the husband’s family home. Her mother in law was in authority over all of the women in the household. “Leave and Cleave” does not mean cut off and separate.
 
You are definitely not alone in this. So many other wives like you and I were part of the Catholic Answers support group, and it truly helped to know that others shared my pain. I think the gaslighting and lying is almost as bad, if not worse, than the porn use and ogling. Men who do that try to completely belittle their wives, and it just keeps pushing us further and further down in our self-esteem. Try not to let that happen to you! It truly isn’t worth it. Our Lord sees and knows the pain you’re going through, and one way or another, there will be justice. I’ve had to put my trust in that thought many, many times. Still do. Please feel free to send me a private message any time you might need to, and take care, my dear. St. Monica is an amazing intercessor. If you read a brief bio on her, you’ll see why! Both her husband and her son were not Christians and behaved horribly, but her prayers and tireless efforts eventually brought about conversion for both. Her son actually made a complete turnaround and one day became St. Augustine - one of the greatest teacher Saints in the Catholic Church!
 
As I said earlier, his ex goes to plenty of events. This one was not appropriate for her to be there. They were married for 3 years 43 years ago! This was only a small party with my husband’s siblings and their kids. Me and my husband also have 2 teenagers. I also have an ex husband and am not inexperienced when it comes to step families etc.

I also said I have been in counseling for years off and on.

As far as corporate culture and career climbing, my husband is 69 and has had his share of climbing and does this job to make a little money and keep busy. My view is you should probably respect a man who tells you he is respecting his wife’s feelings by not being alone with women etc. Billy Graham never allowed himself to be alone with a woman and I think many people respected that about him and didn’t view him as a weirdo. I am also pretty certain we are not supposed to even have the “appearance of scandal”. Given all the church’s issues it seems this would be very much followed and accepted rather than judged. Granted I don’t think your co worker had to share his wife’s feelings and perhaps was looking for pity. He could have just said I will meet you in Tulsa or I don’t play golf period. I have made it pretty clear my husband has a problem with boundaries and I’m not sure why I keep getting judged so harshly by some of the people here. It is disappointing, but perhaps I should be looking for more of a “support” group. Thank you for your time.
 
I have made it pretty clear my husband has a problem with boundaries and I’m not sure why I keep getting judged so harshly by some of the people here. It is disappointing, but perhaps I should be looking for more of a “support” group. Thank you for your time.
No one is judging you harshly. They’re asking you to consider whether your husband truly has a “problem with boundaries” or whether it’s possible that you’re drawing unreasonable boundaries in the first place. The fact that you don’t seem to even be open to considering the possibility that you might need to change a little too is concerning. Maybe this attitude is holding you back from a break through with your husband.

I’m married too. My wife has male coworkers that she occasionally has lunch with. They’re also friends on Facebook and all that. It’s never once occurred to me that based on that I should conclude she’s having an affair. Ditto me and female coworkers.

I think people are just trying to give you food for thought, not invalidate your feelings or tell you’re wrong to be hurt by porn.
 
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Thank you so much! I can tell you totally understand! I think only someone who has experienced this can totally get all the dynamics and the pain, lack of trust, anxiety. I am sorry I missed the group of women here! That is exactly what I have been searching for! I have felt so completely alone and it’s not exactly a topic that you can bring up at a bible study or a women’s meeting. God Bless you!
 
Perhaps the reason those things don’t occur to you is because the trust in your relationship hasn’t been broken. What unreasonable boundaries am I drawing? Expecting him to not lie? Expecting him to not have sex with his computer? I am sorry but you are judging harshly and you seem to have no idea anything about the fallout of betrayal. As I said before my husband has plenty of interactions with plenty of women! It is only certain women that have been issues! He doesn’t seem to cross any boundaries with the unattractive ones. Does that help you understand at all???
 
I also don’t recall saying I don’t need to change anything! I know I need to change! I am angry, hurt, insecure, wounded and alone. I have been in counseling as I said and my counselor retired.
 
“appearance of scandal”.
Since when is having opposite sex friends the “appearance of scandal”… this is not Catholic teaching at all.

Using porn prior and lying being an issue is obviously serious. But it still gives you no right to condemn your husband for sending memes to people. You are offended by your husbands actions and in return, you are offending him equally by you going overboard on the reaction.

Both of you talk about your issues with others (him to his family and you to here and counselors). You two need to talk it out together and not you saying how bad all these things are. Say your feelings then actually listen to his and don’t dismiss them.

You aren’t perfect either and not being open to any advice and only sympathy isn’t healthy or the Catholic way.

I am not going to enter into a back and forth here with you as suggestions and comments are clearly not welcome unless they are completely sympathetic. My prayers are with you.
 
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Try considering that the replies on here are meant to help you, and that they may even have a point with regard to boundaries.

I’m afraid you’ve become quick to find fault in your husband. Once that has happened, it is very difficult to return to believing that he is acting in good faith, but such a return is necessary. Now, of course, if he is using porn and masturbating in secret, that is not acting in good faith, but I don’t think it’s reasonable or helpful to require that he never behave in a friendly manner to his female colleagues.

Is lying to you about these matters going to build trust? No. He should not lie to you, full stop. But also recognize that you may be making it difficult for him to be open with you. If you berate him for something as innocuous as posting funny memes, I can see how very tempting it would be for him to conceal any interaction with women whatsoever. Imagine how you’d feel if your husband treated you to such inquisitions regularly.

You two have been married a long time. I am confident that you can repair your marriage together, and be the team that you were meant to be. I am also sure that nothing will happen overnight, and you may be in for a long period of unhappiness; but if you both stick to it, you can come out stronger.

Finally, I understand that masturbation can be a very difficult habit to break. I hope that he will feel able to come to you instead when he is having the desire to masturbate.
 
But also recognize that you may be making it difficult for him to be open with you. If you berate him for something as innocuous as posting funny memes, I can see how very tempting it would be for him to conceal any interaction with women whatsoever. Imagine how you’d feel if your husband treated you to such inquisitions regularly.
This is exactly it. Good advice here.
 
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Where did you read that I berated him? I said I gave him an ultimatum to do what he was supposed to have already done with the group therapy from the workshop he attended. Some of you seem to assume our conversations are all one sided with me bossing him around. He is far from being a man without a backbone. He is verbally abusive at times and refuses to talk or be near me and the kids for long periods of time(days and even weeks). He was put on medication for some of these things and secretly stopped taking the medication. But it’s awesome how the blanks are getting filled in by people here that I am “controlling” “berating” etc. I am sorry for coming here and posting since only one person here seems to have any first hand experience with what this has been like to deal with and empathy. I have tried to delete the entire post but apparently I cannot. Regardless of all the opinions, I appreciate the prayers people have offered.
 
Billy Graham never allowed himself to be alone with a woman and I think many people respected that about him and didn’t view him as a weirdo.
Mr Graham was not in corporate business world, he was a preacher. Different colleagues and expectations.
Since when is having opposite sex friends the “appearance of scandal”… this is not Catholic teaching at all.
Exactly.
 
You told him to go to therapy or else. Not a suggestion or a team effort but “therapy or else”. Rather extreme I’d say. Better ways to go about it.
 
Billy Graham never allowed himself to be alone with a woman and I think many people respected that about him and didn’t view him as a weirdo.
The thing about extremely public figures like Billy Graham and Mike Pence is that they have more reason to be careful around members of the opposite sex than the average man. Famous people are subject to a lot of rumors and dubious claims of sexual assault, the latter especially being a problem nowadays. Of course, they will say it is about loving their wives because no one wants to make it obvious that they are covering their butts against malicious attacks on their good name.
 
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I read your posts. “Berated” seemed an appropriate word to use.

You’re quite right that we only know what you tell us. Now:

Were you looking for advice to help your situation? If so, you’ve received many replies that, although perhaps painful to read, could actually help.

I think we all have sympathy for your pain and loneliness. It just isn’t useful to frame the problem as “My husband is a hound and I am his victim.”
 
You told him to go to therapy or else. Not a suggestion or a team effort but “therapy or else”. Rather extreme I’d say. Better ways to go about it.
Especially the time when posting memes was what prompted the “therapy or else” ultimatum.
 
I told him to go to the group therapy which the professionals had already told him to do! The memes obviously were just another example and not the bigger issue. Not one of you even asked what the memes were but yet assumed they were innocent.

Like I said I am in the wrong group here. It’s seriously like gang mentality. Even his secular counselor told him his behavior and interactions with women were wrong and needed to stop. It’s very sad to see so many Catholic people making excuses for a man who betrays his wife and blaming the spouse. It explains why so many Catholic marriages are torn apart from porn. There seems to be a complete lack of understanding and very little support for women who have been betrayed.

Then there are judgements about Billy Graham’s reason for being pure… Like it’s impossible that a Christian man would choose purity for a reason other than money and image. Very sad!

Have any of you read “Theology of the Body”. From Saint Pope John Paul? Doesn’t seem like it.

It is clear no matter what I say in this group you all seem to only want to belittle and attack. I’m really all set with all of this. I have been knocked down and hurt enough without being the brunt of the “gotcha” in here.

What I was looking for was empathy and direction for a group that supports and deals with sexual betrayal trauma. This is clearly not the place so I apologize for coming here and taking all of your time! Like I said I would delete the entire post if it would let me.

I will not return here or respond again but I will pray for all of you and your marriages.
 
I’m sorry you feel offended by the responses. Most people have tried to make it clear that porn is wrong and you have every right to feel hurt and betrayed.
They are also trying to say that while he is wrong and you have every right to feel hurt and betrayed, there are also things you can do to help heal the relationship.

My parents fought for years because of something my father had done repeatedly. Believe me, he was wrong and my mother had every right to be angry. I can understand that her trust was broken and needed to be restored. Years down the line, though, my dad had quite a turnaround and was sincerely trying to do everything right. My mother, however, responded to his attempts to do the right thing by continuing to hold his past against him and nitpick tiny things he did wrong. It was anything but productive, and my mother was wrong to act that way toward him when he was sincerely trying.

Now, it SEEMS, based on what you posted, that a similar thing is going on here. I can understand giving an ultimatum about going to the group when he was looking at porn. But giving an ultimatum about it when he was posting memes doesn’t sound reasonable. Ultimatums should be reserved for extremely serious instances. What people were trying to say is not that you shouldn’t be hurt or offended by his looking at porn, but rather that it isn’t helpful or productive to be angry at him for things that aren’t reasonable to be angry about.

If he is indeed verbally abusive, that is certainly something that needs to stop. However, I think what others are trying to point out is that if you respond with ultimatums for things that don’t merit them, that will naturally result in him being defensive toward you. It’s human nature. Yes, he is in the wrong about the porn. But in order to heal the relationship, you need to do your part too. That may entail deciding if something he does merits an ultimatum or if it does not.
 
OP, I’m sorry you are having trouble in your marriage.

It would seem that you have several things going on in your marriage.
  1. Your husband has some issues with porn and masturbation from time to time. As Catholics, it is easy to see how this is a problem. However it sounds like he is seeking and getting appropriate help and doing better in this regard.
  2. Your husband chats and jokes with his female co-workers socially and it bothers you. It’s harder to see how this is a problem because his behavior, the way you have expressed it, doesn’t sound like anything to get upset about. That doesn’t mean it might not be an issue in view of other matters such as (1), but it does mean you would be better off discussing this with a therapist rather than strangers on a forum.
  3. You do not feel at ease around your husband’s family who live 8 hours away, when you visit them, and you don’t like his ex who is the mother of his middle-aged daughter being around on the visits. Again, while we can see there is an issue here, it seems like if it’s an 8-hour trip you do not have to be around these folks very often and/or you could simply refuse to go for any more visits. If there is more to it than that, again it would seem to be best discussed with a therapist.
Please consider getting some professional help for yourself so you can better explore these problems and find some solutions that work for you.

It is always a little bit difficult when people post long wall of text discussions of their personal relationships here and then do not like the responses they get. It’s often not possible for the person posting their situation to fully express everything in a post or a thread. Complicated family situations also often benefit more from professional help than from a bunch of random strangers just posting their two cents based on their own experiences. For those reasons, I would suggest that you might get more benefit out of talking to a qualified professional who can help you with your marital issues. Good luck and God bless.
 
for a group that supports and deals with sexual betrayal trauma.
This is new information. You have been sexually abused, that is a very different situation. Provides an insight to your reactions.

It is important to get therapy, religious counsel and to be part of a victim’s support group. Helping with sexual trauma is far beyond the scope of internet strangers.
 
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