Marriage between a Roman Catholic and an Agnostic

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To agapewolf:
“To clarify…the Catholic church has never, nor will ever ever change doctrine.”
Thank you for the clarification. I still tend to get a little bit confused regarding the differences between “doctrine,” “dogma,” and “disciplines.” I was under the impression that dogma was the rock solid one, and doctrine is more flexible.

To HouseArrest:
“I would say you’d need to be sure your “promise” and the Church’s “promise” are the same thing. In talking to your priest during marriage prep, I would bring this up.”
I agree.

“But if I leave as clause in there the whole time that they don’t “have to” believe it, then I am really not raising them Catholic. Not really. I am sneaking in a doubt. I am telling them that there is a chance that what we are teaching them is not true.”
It’s been said earlier that I do NOT believe that the Catholic Church is truth…so any way I teach my children about the church, I think it would be irresponsible of me to NOT sneak in some doubt. If what I have proposed regarding how I would intend to raise my children “in the catholic faith” is not sufficient, it makes me wonder how ANY non-Catholic marrying a Catholic could possibly make this promise and mean it. Who in their right mind would try to convince their child that something is “absolute truth” when they don’t actually believe it themselves?

To agapewolf/Feanaro’s Wife:
*“This is what proves its truth. As a human institution, it should have folded by now, but because it has the Holy Spirit preventing from teaching error, and the truth never ever changes, (2+2=4), this is how it has held strong this long and will till the end of time.”

“Yeah, 2000+ years of not being screwed up by us, wow! That was a huge factor in my own conversion.”*

Serious flaw in reasoning here. Of course, anyone is free to disagree….but this is the way I see it:

Being old doesn’t equal being right. Also, 2000 years isn’t old. It’s a blip on the timeline of Earth’s history, and it may very well be a blip on the timeline of Earth’s future. Take the ancient Egyptians, for example (they’re not quite a religion, but they still represented a set of beliefs). They hung around for three millennia. Then it was all over. If someone was standing around in 1142 BC, after the Egyptians had been hanging around for 2008 years and said “this Egyptian culture has hung around for 2000+ years…since it’s old and we humans haven’t brought it crumbling to the ground yet, this proves that what we believe in is the truth, and we’ll be around until the end of time.”

Let’s think about it…if older is better and reform is never needed, perhaps we should all be Jewish.
 
ABello said:
it makes me wonder how ANY non-Catholic marrying a Catholic could possibly make this promise and mean it. Who in their right mind would try to convince their child that something is “absolute truth” when they don’t actually believe it themselves?
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As I understand it, the non-Catholic spouse makes no such promises. The Catholic spouse promises to raise their child Catholic and the the non-Catholic spouse is advised of this promise, but it ends there. The problem for you may be that technically the Catholic church considers you Catholic. I don’t know how that would all work out then. A question for a priest I imagine. 😃
 
If it is just the ceremony than talk to a Priest about what is allow and what is not.

The best I can offer is “Good Luck.” You’re going to need it.

The problem is you are naive. This is a function of your age. Wisdom truly does come with age. This is a thing that is easily dismissed by someone younger as it sounds like an attack on your intelligence. It is not. Many people here have solid experience being married, raising children, and having life throw things at them that you can’t begin to imagine will happen.

However, if he is truly a pick and chose Catholic then I don’t understand why he doesn’t pick what you want. If you can really pick and chose, then what you are suggesting should be just fine with him. But it is not because there is something there that is stopping him. But why? What else will he not be able to pick and chose about his religion? If he stays right where he is and never grows either in knowledge or faith, then he might be able to continue to pick and chose. But should he grow and become more knowledgeable and faithfilled, then this is where there are difficulties for marriages like yours. You can go up and down the lists here on the forum and see this. "I was a cafeteria catholic, but now I’ve become more faithful and spouse is not and xyz. So while you are discussing the ceremony, it might be prudent to discuss how you would handle this should it arise.

Frankly if he is a pick and chose Catholic, the marriage might not be valid. The discussion of a valid marriage can be found here usccb.org/laity/marriage/marriagefaqs.shtml
This is something he needs to discuss with a Priest.
 
mom2boyz said:
If it is just the ceremony than talk to a Priest about what is allow and what is not.

The best I can offer is “Good Luck.” You’re going to need it.

The problem is you are naive. This is a function of your age. Wisdom truly does come with age. This is a thing that is easily dismissed by someone younger as it sounds like an attack on your intelligence. It is not. Many people here have solid experience being married, raising children, and having life throw things at them that you can’t begin to imagine will happen.

However, if he is truly a pick and chose Catholic then I don’t understand why he doesn’t pick what you want. If you can really pick and chose, then what you are suggesting should be just fine with him. But it is not because there is something there that is stopping him.

I think, if I remember correctly, they (or he) wants a Catholic wedding. But having a Catholic wedding will bind them to several things, one being to raise their children Catholic and that is causing a problem.
But why? What else will he not be able to pick and chose about his religion? If he stays right where he is and never grows either in knowledge or faith, then he might be able to continue to pick and chose. But should he grow and become more knowledgeable and faithfilled, then this is where there are difficulties for marriages like yours. You can go up and down the lists here on the forum and see this. "I was a cafeteria catholic, but now I’ve become more faithful and spouse is not and xyz. So while you are discussing the ceremony, it might be prudent to discuss how you would handle this should it arise.

Frankly if he is a pick and chose Catholic, the marriage might not be valid. The discussion of a valid marriage can be found here usccb.org/laity/marriage/marriagefaqs.shtml
This is something he needs to discuss with a Priest.
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Very well said, all of it here. I would say it’s time to talk to a priest as well.
 
KarenElissa said:
As I understand it, the non-Catholic spouse makes no such promises. The Catholic spouse promises to raise their child Catholic and the the non-Catholic spouse is advised of this promise, but it ends there. The problem for you may be that technically the Catholic church considers you Catholic. I don’t know how that would all work out then. A question for a priest I imagine. 😃
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There is some committment on the part of the non Catholic, is there not?
 
To KarenElissa:
“As I understand it, the non-Catholic spouse makes no such promises.”
This came up earlier in the conversation. Somewhere along the way things got derailed and muddled, as it seems some people thought otherwise. mom2boyz’s link supports your comment: “The non-Catholic spouse does not have to promise to have the children raised Catholic. The Catholic spouse must promise to do all that he or she can to have the children baptized and raised in the Catholic faith.”

To mom2boyz:
“However, if he is truly a pick and chose Catholic then I don’t understand why he doesn’t pick what you want.”
You seem a little confused about what I mean by pick-and-choose Catholic. It seems to me that you haven’t read through this thread (and I don’t blame you…I wouldn’t want to either!)

To be a pick and choose Catholic does not mean being someone without morals and boundaries. Just because my boyfriend does not follow every teaching of the Catholic Church down to the letter, this doesn’t mean that what he DOES follow should just be discarded on a whim, as you suggest. Marriage in the Catholic Church is important to him. Having children raised in the Catholic faith is important to him.
 
ABello said:
To agapewolf/Feanaro’s Wife:
*“This is what proves its truth. As a human institution, it should have folded by now, but because it has the Holy Spirit preventing from teaching error, and the truth never ever changes, (2+2=4), this is how it has held strong this long and will till the end of time.”

“Yeah, 2000+ years of not being screwed up by us, wow! That was a huge factor in my own conversion.”*

Serious flaw in reasoning here. Of course, anyone is free to disagree….but this is the way I see it:
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**If that is what you see then of course our logic looks seriously flawed, lol. Let me try to explain what I meant. Our Church was founded by Jesus Himself and is protected from error by the Holy Spirit (in matters of faith and morals). Now, anyone who can read can pick up a history book and see that we’ve had some not-so-good Popes. We’ve had controversy. Let’s face it, the human factors have been FAR from perfect throughout history… so WHY hasn’t anything changed?

Why haven’t the teachings on contraception, gay “marriage”, female priests etc changed in the face of today’s society? You can certainly find enough priests and bishops that don’t agree with those teachings… so if it were like any other human institution on earth something would give…small concessions would be made. Then biggers ones. If the Church is not supernatural in nature then I honestly can’t see how things have stayed the same over the past 60 or so years…forget 2000!**
 
I understand perfectly what pick and chose means. It means he believes what he wants, probably the parts he like. He disregards those things he disagrees with. That doesn’t mean he is immoral or doesn’t have boundaries.

He lacks a true understand what it means to be Catholic. This is not uncommon for someone his age. Many of us have walked that walk. But the fact of the matter is this is not a pick and chose religion. Either it is the truth or it is not.

On some very basic level he understand the importance of getting married in the Church and raising his children. But on a more mature level he really doesn’t understand what that entails. At the very least he is religiously immature.

The problem I see is that there is a tug on his heart and soul for his religion. Now that might not change from where it is now. Or it might get weaker. But if it gets stronger then there will be many thing for him to sort out. This is not an easy path. This could put a huge chasm between the two of you.

For instance if you decide to use artificial birth control, there may come a day when he realizes what a mortal sin this is. Now what? Does he continue committing a mortal sin? This may be quite a painful realization. If he goes into marriage with the intent to artificially contracept, he may very well have entered into an invalid marriage. These are things he needs to discuss with his priest.

But if your only concern is the ceremony then talk to the priest. He can sort the mechanics of the ceremony out with you.
 
AB I have to be honest with you after reading all of these posts from the very beginning and tell you that I am about to write a lengthy post here and let you know that I do see it both ways. I can understand how someone would want to pick and choose their beliefs in Catholicism. Take Birth Control for example, say a couple is married all of their lives they only want and can afford 2-3 children. It’s pretty hard to convince the average person initially to use NFP and basically barely cover the bills to support 10 kids if God gives them that. Sounds pretty irresponsible and basically like we are going backwards toward a third world nation of having kids that we cannot afford bc it’s what our religion teaches us, almost borderline Pentecostal…which is scarry bc you are trusting the Catholic faith and that God will see you through. When you understand and embrace the reasonings behind this Catholic concept it sheds plenty of light as to why we have rules like these in the Catholic church. Many times the most intelligent people in the world are the “scientists” of the world. They are the people that question everything, and believe in nothing because they are not ones to be fooled. They just cannot lay back and blindly take something for face value through faith bc it leaves one vulnerable to something scarry they cannot control…God; and what if there is not one, then what idiots do we look like? Here’s the thing: intelligence does not equal wisdom. I am 12 years older than you and I am not a wise person, I am intelligent sure, I have a degree in MIS, I can do quantum physic equations in a flash, doesnt mean that I am wise…that will tell you how far you have to go at 21, even if you are the smartest 21 year old in your state. Thats why the “old wise men” of the world are older than dirt. It takes life long lessons, introspective thought, query, experiences that rock the boat, hard blows, and more to become wise. We can live our whole lives and still not be wise, even if we are certain we are right, even if we do our homework, but we will be wiser at 82 than 22. There is always something someone knows or lived through that you or I did not. It’s why we have doctrine, teachings, rules, the bible! Just like there will always be someone that likes you or does not like you no matter what a great person you are wherever you go. Now let me tell you something that happened to me because I believe you have to believe in God first before you can be any religion or really through the years be on the same page with your spouse that is Catholic, regardless of which brand of Catholicism he deems himself. When I decided to finish my degree at the end of my junior year, me, my entire family, and everyone I know got slammed by Hurricane Katrina. Everyone had 9-25 feet of water in their homes and businesses. There were homes off of the Gulf of Mexico that were beautiful plantations and historical homes that stood for years, they weighed a ton and restored to perfection. Next door to them was the Cathedral my parents were married in. Every living creature, plant, and tree was dead, brown, gone. The only thing standing were the churches, the statues of Jesus, Mary, and the Saints. We crawled our way into one church after our evacuation when the waters went down and it was opened to the chapter in Genesis of the bible that states…“and the waters receeded”. This happened from Mobile, AL to Metairie, LA thats waay to many miles to be pure coincidence. When my boyfriend asks me where does faith come from, I tell him things like this. You have to experience it to believe it…and I mean have an experience. Everyone one who believes does or has at some point in their life over something. Some are more drastic than others. Noone can scientifically explain how a 60 pound statue w/o a scratch, and a bible made of the same oak tree that is shredded next to it is standing when a 3000 pound house right next to it is demolished and they are all off of the Gulf of Mexico that gave us a lovely 40 foot water wall to destroy our cities! You see it is experience and wisdom that will bring you closer to Christ even if you dont want it bc he wants you. You wouldnt be here if he didnt, and I mean on this forum. I know that somewhere you know that. I know that you are an intelligent person that can hold a conversation, but you are not an experienced person of wisdom or these issues in your life would not even be an issue to start with. When you truly understand what this world is about and your place and God’s place in it, you will be ready for marriage and kids. I am sorry but you have absolutely no idea what you are in for w/o the foundation of Christ, I dont care how legible, educated, bright, thoughtful, or thought provoking you and your boyfriend are. You need to continue to question and learn and do it over and over and over again, bc we never get it right, but we get closer to where we need to be than whence we were before. It’s your choice, like I said to you before, noone is going to force you, you have to want it, you have to make room for God. If you do that you will realize then and there that “making room” is an insult, he is the room. But you have to start somewhere. If you dont then you are walking blind and you WILL regret passing that blindness on to your children one day, whether you mean to or not, obligatory sacraments, in your mind, or not–it will come out and this confusion will be something you are ill prepared to deal with, I don’t care if you have a PhD. It is immature to say I have so many questions that I will just believe in nothing. More immature than believing in something and being wrong. There is absolutely no other way to put it to you than this from me, I will not be responding any further, it is ultimately your choice to get real or not.
 
Sorry I haven’t been back to this thread – it’s been a crazy couple of days! :whacky:

ABello, where your “parenting” analogy breaks down is that the Church is concerned with the salvation of souls. In this regard the Church is much more analogous with civil government. You can’t “pick and choose” which laws to obey; the government expects its citizens to keep all civil laws so as to serve the common good of society. Likewise, the Church expects all Catholics to be obedient to its laws so as to serve the common good of the faithful. Just as there temporal consequences to those who “pick and choose” what civil laws to obey, there are spiritual consequences for those Catholics who “pick and choose” from the Church’s teachings.

Either the Church is entirely right or it’s entirely wrong. There’s no middle ground. If the Church has the fullness of Truth, then why *not *obey all of Her teachings?

I would ask Andrew (great name, BTW, my BIL is Andrew!) why he believes the Church is correct about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist but wrong about, say, contraception. If the Church is wrong about contraception, why isn’t it wrong about the Real Presence in the Eucharist?

But if the Church does *not *have the fullness of Truth, then what’s the point of being Catholic? Why not join a church that does (in his opinion) teach the truth?

Does he think there is a church that contains the fullness of truth, or is he of the opinion that all Christian denominations have it wrong? If the latter is the case, why be a Christian at all if Christ’s church has so utterly failed?
 
ABello said:
I require some help regarding what the rules are when dealing with a marriage between a Catholic and an Agnostic.

Here are the details of my situation: I am Agnostic, but my boyfriend is a devout Roman Catholic. Lately we’ve been discussing marriage, but we’re unclear on how we can strike a compromise between our very different belief systems. What he wants, is to have a Catholic ceremony in a Catholic church. What I want, is not to have a Catholic ceremony, and not to be in a Catholic church.

Now, here’s the compromises we’re willing to make:

Option 1) We have a Catholic ceremony, outside of a church (say, at our reception venue or outside in a garden)

Option 2) We have two ceremonies. One Catholic ceremony, before our reception date, where we do NOT sign any legal papers, and therefore, are married in the eyes of the church but not the state. Then on the day of our reception, we would have a civil ceremony whereby we become legally married.

My primary issue is that I’m unsure what the Catholic church permits in terms of situations like this one. Can one have a Catholic ceremony outside of an actual church? Is having a religious ceremony without signing papers allowed?

If anyone could shed some light on this situation, I’d be very appreciative.

Much thanks,
-A
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No offense, but I think you’re setting yourselves up for a lifetime of conflict.😦
 
Hello everyone,

This is Andrew, the boyfriend in question. I’ve been keeping up with this thread, and I have to say that I appreciate all of the knoledge that everyone is passing on to help ABello and I with our relationship. I will make a longer post later on answering some of your questions about my beliefs, but this post is just to inform everyone that ABello will not be online for the next 3 weeks as she is currently vacationing in Italy. I hope we can keep this thread alive as it is quite important to both of us to resolve our problem in the best way possible.

-Andrew
 
Marriage between a Catholic and Agnostic don’t always work. I am a devout Catholic, very active in my church and married to an Agnostic for 22 years. She started out attending mass a couple of times a year with me which has dropped to no times a year for the past 2 or 3 years. I have diligently prayed for her conversion for the last 22 years, but to no avail. As a result, our marriage is in serious trouble and we are now in counseling. The marriage has been difficult due to the differences in our ‘beliefs’, and alot of friction caused by her ‘beliefs’ that religion is to blame for all the bad in the world. When I attend mass on sundays, it hurts me to see all the other ‘families’ attend. There is a big part of my life missing because my wife is not part of my spiritual life. Please pray hard, and think twice before moving on to engagement and marriage. God Bless.
 
AForti said:
Hello everyone,
This is Andrew, the boyfriend in question. I’ve been keeping up with this thread, and I have to say that I appreciate all of the knoledge that everyone is passing on to help ABello and I with our relationship. I will make a longer post later on answering some of your questions about my beliefs, but this post is just to inform everyone that ABello will not be online for the next 3 weeks as she is currently vacationing in Italy. I hope we can keep this thread alive as it is quite important to both of us to resolve our problem in the best way possible.

-Andrew
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**Nice to meet you Andrew:tiphat: Glad to see you here and I also hope ABello is having a great vacation in Italy, that sounds wonderful! **
 
AForti said:
Hello everyone,

This is Andrew, the boyfriend in question. I’ve been keeping up with this thread, and I have to say that I appreciate all of the knoledge that everyone is passing on to help ABello and I with our relationship. I will make a longer post later on answering some of your questions about my beliefs, but this post is just to inform everyone that ABello will not be online for the next 3 weeks as she is currently vacationing in Italy. I hope we can keep this thread alive as it is quite important to both of us to resolve our problem in the best way possible.

-Andrew
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Hi everyone, longtime lurker, first time poster. 🙂

I am a Catholic married to an agnostic. We’ve been married a little over 4 years now. We don’t have kids and it’s probably going to stay that way (please don’t ask).

There is a lot of good in my marriage, don’t misunderstand. But since I returned to the Church, there has also been a lot of heartache. I would not wish this on anyone.

If religion is important to you, please do not get married. Trust me. Things may be fine at first… but one day, AForti, you may find yourself in the pew feeling jealous and left out because everyone else seems to have a Catholic spouse, and yours thinks the all this “God stuff” is a bunch of hot air. And ABello, you may find yourself resentful because AForti clings to beliefs that you think are a bunch of hot air.

Don’t do it. You’re great people. You’re not great for each other.
 
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