Marriage Between Two Catholics Before a Priest - Not Valid in the Church

[ConstantLearner]

My oldest sister is a baptized Catholic. She married a man who is also a baptized Catholic. They were married by a priest in the rectory of his parish. Is their marriage valid in the eyes of the Church? (I know they have a valid civil union.)

I have been under the impression it is not valid in the eyes of the Church because both had previously been married. While they obtained a civil divorce, neither obtained a Church annulment, so I believe that lack causes their marriage to be invalid in the eyes of the Church, and they should refrain from the sacraments and seek annulments.

 

[Mtatum1958]

There is not enough information about their first marriages, or attempt, to answer. Express your concerns to them or to a priest.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Are you privy to all the circumstances of their previous marriages? How do you know there was no annulment?

Unless you are saying they lied to the priest who married them, it was his responsibility to ensure the validity of the marriage.

If your sibling has questions she can ask her priest. It’s not really for you to question.

 

[PetraG]

I would think the priest would have gone over this beforehand. It is not as if priests are normally ignorant of the laws of the Church. If you are married, you will remember it is routine to have to answer questions concerning things that might affect your freedom to marry.

Did they both marry outside the Church the first time? Both, being baptized Catholics, were bound to marry according to the laws of the Church, even if they married other Catholics, which means getting a dispensation if the marriage is not officiated by a member of the Catholic clergy. If they did not do that the first time each married, their first marriages suffered from lack of form and would not be valid. This is not nearly so difficult to document as the verification of many of the other reasons that can prevent an attempt at marriage from being valid.

In other words, do not assume that just because there wasn’t a long drawn-out process required that no one ever took the trouble to verify that the first attempts at marriage weren’t valid.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Are you privy to all the circumstances of their previous marriages? How do you know there was no annulment?

Of course I am. She is my sister and we are very close. I know there were no annulments because she told me.

It’s my business because she asked me, and I’m not sure. She is also a person I love very much. This is a DB where most ate completely anonymous. Caring for others is everyone’s responsibility.

 

[ConstantLearner]

In other words, do not assume that just because there wasn’t a long drawn-out process required that no one ever took the trouble to verify that the first attempts at marriage weren’t valid.

I assume nothing. I know it because both told me they did not seek an annulment.

I don’t know why you would ever think I would “assume” something so important about my own sister and brother-in-law. It’s rather shocking.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

You tell her to talk to her priest. This is not something you can handle for her

 

[ConstantLearner]

I would think the priest would have gone over this beforehand. It is not as if priests are normally ignorant of the laws of the Church. If you are married, you will remember it is routine to have to answer questions concerning things that might affect your freedom to marry.

The priest went over nothing. He is a longtime family friend. He knew everything without questioning them.

 

[pensmama87]

It’s possible that, depending on the circumstances of the prior attempts at marriage, it was handled quickly and without much effort from your sister. “Annulment” is really not the appropriate terminology, so it would be very easy for a misunderstanding to happen if that’s the term she (or you) expected to use.

 

[ConstantLearner]

It’s possible that, depending on the circumstances of the prior attempts at marriage, it was handled quickly and without much effort from your sister. “Annulment” is really not the appropriate terminology, so it would be very easy for a misunderstanding to happen if that’s the term she (or you) expected to use.

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand all you’ve said, but thank you for your answer. The priest was a longtime (decades) family friend. He baptized all those in my family. My sister called him and asked if he would marry her and her fiance, and he said yes, but in the rectory due to their prior marriages.

 

[pensmama87]

Some attempts at marriage do not need a full-on investigation by the Tribunal to determine validity. For some it’s just a matter of filing paperwork. If this was the case for either your sister or her husband, it is understandable that they might think they never “got an annulment.”

 

[ConstantLearner]

You tell her to talk to her priest. This is not something you can handle for her

She does not attend church now due to illness. Of course I can gather information for her! I know as much about her as she does. I not “handling” anything but information. If you don’t know, that’s fine. I’m sure some do.

 

[Wesrock]

pensmama87:

It’s possible that, depending on the circumstances of the prior attempts at marriage, it was handled quickly and without much effort from your sister. “Annulment” is really not the appropriate terminology, so it would be very easy for a misunderstanding to happen if that’s the term she (or you) expected to use.

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand all you’ve said, but thank you for your answer. The priest was a longtime (decades) family friend. He baptized all those in my family. My sister called him and asked if he would marry her and her fiance, and he said yes, but in the rectory due to their prior marriages.

This sounds potentially concerning as it’s not clear if the priest did his due diligence. I think we shouldn’t assume the worst of him, and he may have resolved things properly and quietly, but your sister needs to bring this up with her current priest. We really can’t advise more than that.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Some attempts at marriage do not need a full-on investigation by the Tribunal to determine validity. For some it’s just a matter of filing paperwork. If this was the case for either your sister or her husband, it is understandable that they might think they never “got an annulment.”

I know no paperwork was filed other than the paper he sent to court saying he performed their marriage. No paperwork regarding their former marriages, but they were civil only.

The priest seemed to think that because he performed the marriage in the rectory, it was not “in the Church.” I don’t see it that way, but he’s the priest, not me. Still, priests make mistakes. They are human.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

mrsdizzyd:

You tell her to talk to her priest. This is not something you can handle for her

She does not attend church now due to illness. Of course I can gather information for her! I know as much about her as she does. I not “handling” anything but information. If you don’t know, that’s fine. I’m sure some do.

She still has to be the one to contact the priest because it is her marriage. Gathering hypothetical information is only going to confuse the issue.

I do know what the answer is: if she thinks there is an issue with her current marriage she must contact a priest who after talking to her may direct her to the marriage tribunal for further investigation.

 

[pensmama87]

I know no paperwork was filed.

The priest seemed to think that because he performed the marriage in the rectory, it was not “in the Church.” I don’t see it that way, but he’s the priest, not me. Still, priests make mistakes. They are human.

If you are so certain the priest is in error, then there’s not much we can do about it, and I’m confused as to the purpose of this thread.

Your sister may not have filed anything. The priest may have. Or she may not remember. shrug If the priest was in error, then I have a hard time seeing how your sister and her husband hold any responsibility for it. The attempts by posters on this thread are just trying to explain to you how things could be different than how they appear. If none of those are possible and you know that, again, there’s not much we can do to help you.

 

[somecanadian]

I’m sorry. People here can be quite blunt, straight forward and no-nonsense. It can sometimes be off putting. Hopefully this isn’t your first time here?

That said. The situation sounds concerning. Were there witnesses? Was there an annulment? Was the Bishop consulted (I believe he would need to be when an annulment is involved)? Or did this priest do this to be ‘nice’?

Unfortunately we can’t answer any of those questions so we can’t be much help.

My understanding of remarriages (my cousin was married in the church and her husband required an annulment) is that they require dispensation/consultation? from the Bishop.

You’ve stated the priest did it in the rectory because he saw that as ‘not in the church’… this sounds to me like even he recognizes it’s not valid. Why do it outside the church if it’s valid?

Your sister needs to contact that priest to figure this out. If she’s too weak to do it herself, I’d suggest you help her. I don’t see why you couldn’t. Especially if she’s ill.

 

[somecanadian]

She probably just wanted some confirmation before going further. Some of us aren’t comfortable going to priests with questions. I know I’m not.

 

[ConstantLearner]

She still has to be the one to contact the priest because it is her marriage. Gathering hypothetical information is only going to confuse the issue.

No, she doesn’t have to be the one. I’ve handled something like this in the past for a friend confined to a nursing home. I don’t intend to sign papers for anyone or initiate any proceedings.

We have some posters here who are very current on canon law - even some canon lawyers.

 

[pensmama87]

She probably just wanted some confirmation before going further. Some of us aren’t comfortable going to priests with questions. I know I’m not.

That is possible. But the pattern of responses suggests to me that this is a “gotcha.” If I’m wrong, I apologize.