Marriage Between Two Catholics Before a Priest - Not Valid in the Church

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I’m not familiar with the gotcha thing. I think I’m too new to be on the lookout for that. Haha.
 
somecanadian said:
Your sister needs to contact that priest to figure this out. If she’s too weak to do it herself, I’d suggest you help her. I don’t see why you couldn’t. Especially if she’s ill.
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Thank you for your politeness and help. It is greatly appreciated. I will give her the information.
 
somecanadian said:
I’m not familiar with the gotcha thing. I think I’m too new to be on the lookout for that. Haha.
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The pattern starts like this:

OP: Unlikely scenario, asks for explanation.
Posters: Offer possible explanations
OP: Conveniently explains away every option with increasingly unlikely details (often a TON of detail) that make Church teaching or officials look as bad as possible

I mean, is it possible? Yes. People mess up. But this looks more and more unlikely to me, and while tone is hard to read, the response to “you may have misunderstood” or “what about this?” suggests to me at least that this pattern may be at work. My responses are kindly meant. People do misunderstand what priests say to them, all of the time, and then pass that on when they recap events.
 
somecanadian said:
I’m not familiar with the gotcha thing. I think I’m too new to be on the lookout for that. Haha.
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I’m not all that new and not even sure what a gotcha is, but it sounds like some kind of a trap or game to me. Frankly, I’ve never seen a game played on here unless it’s in the Casual Forum and identified as such and very innocent. I spend most of my time there. People are more polite and less inclined to make me run to the Episcopalians for some civility! And a much better choir - I am a professional classical singer.

Again, thank you for your polite and helpful answer. I will talk to my sister. She is ill with systemic lupus so asked me to find out some initial information for her. I would talk to the priest who performed the marriage, but he is in his mid-90s now and suffering from some age-related dementia in an assisted living home.

If you ever feel the need for some relaxation and de-stressing here, the Casual Forum will welcome you with open arms and no nasty remarks - ever! 😀
 
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Oh! I’ve gotten used to how people are here. Haha.

This sounds like a super tricky situation. If it’s a valid marriage the parish will have a record of it. SO if talking to the priest can’t happen you CAN go to the parish and ask for the marriage records. If there are none, you know it wasn’t done properly or validly.
 
pensmama87 said:
OP: Conveniently explains away every option with increasingly unlikely details (often a TON of detail) that make Church teaching or officials look as bad as possible
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Why wouldn’t I know a ton of detail about my own sister who I grew up with and consider my best friend? I know everything about her just as she knows everything about me.

The priest, who is now a monsignor, is very sweet, kind, and compassionate. I’m sure whatever he did, it was out of love and caring for my family. We know him well. He must have eaten 100 meals at our house - cooked most of them, too, and took my siblings and me to many cultural evens. Nothing bad to say about him.
 
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somecanadian said:
This sounds like a super tricky situation. If it’s a valid marriage the parish will have a record of it. SO if talking to the priest can’t happen you CAN go to the parish and ask for the marriage records. If there are none, you know it wasn’t done properly or validly.
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I was just thinking that myself. Great minds! 😉 Thanks!
 
ConstantLearner said:
Why wouldn’t I know a ton of detail about my own sister who I grew up with and consider my best friend? I know everything about her just as she knows everything about me.
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Well, if things are as you say, then looking up the record or clarifying with the priest is the best you can do, if he gives you that information (ours wouldn’t, except what was public record.)

The only point that I was trying to make is that it’s very easy for people in good faith to misunderstand each other and pass that misunderstanding on. Hopefully that’s all that’s happened here (in this situation and on this thread.)
 
We had a priest in this community who would travel with a local man to a nearby town to get alcohol. They would get half-drunk together, then drive home. Every weekend.

The fellow he did it with was not Catholic but had a very fond view of Catholicism because of this ‘buddy’ priest. BUT the community who learned of these travels ended up believing the priest was alcoholic. To this day there are people who refuse to set foot in the local Catholic parish because they believe the priests are hypocritical alcoholics… because this one priest was trying to be kind.

Priests sometimes make mistakes in the name of being kind. It happens.

Hopefully your sister can call the parish and they can tell her if there is a record of her marriage on file. If there is, I would put this to rest and presume it is valid. At this point with the priest being as old as he is, I’m not sure much more is needed.

If there is no paperwork, you could speak to the current priest of that parish and ask for advice on how to proceed.

PS: The parish keeps records of EVERYTHING. Baptism. Confirmation. Marriage. Funerals. If it’s valid, it’s in their files.
 
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I think she would do better to ask a canon lawyer. They are equipped to deal with these sorts of queries, especially where there is a question of whether the priest overstepped his authority.

Asking your relative (unless relative is a canon lawyer) or a bunch of strangers on the Internet is unlikely to resolve the matter.
 
mrsdizzyd said:
She still has to be the one to contact the priest because it is her marriage. Gathering hypothetical information is only going to confuse the issue.
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No confusion. Canon law is canon law. And, as you can see, a very nice @somecanadian has helped me find the direction in which to proceed.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Asking your relative (unless relative is a canon lawyer) or a bunch of strangers on the Internet is unlikely to resolve the matter.
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Sorry, not buying that despite your cute avatar. We have entire forums here filled with people asking very similar questions. If we didn’t, CAF would cease to exist.

And, as I said above, I did, indeed, find the right direction.

And, I don’t think this particular priest would overstep his authority. Ever. Whatever he did or didn’t do, I’m convinced it was the right thing. I’m just not sure what it was.
 
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You can ask all you want, and find directions you think are right.

If I were truly concerned with the validity of my marriage and wondering if the priest did it wrong, I’d call a lawyer. Same way as I’d call a civil lawyer if I wondered about the validity of my civil marriage.

By even asking this question, you are raising a possibility that the priest erred. If you trust the priest then there should be no problem and no question.

Good luck with your new direction.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
By even asking this question, you are raising a possibility that the priest erred. If you trust the priest then there should be no problem and no question.
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There can be a question without error on his part.

Someone might bring you Anna Karenina when you asked for The Brothers Karamazov. It could be the bookstore was out of copies of Anna Karenina. Did the person err? No. Did you misunderstand? Probably.

People here need to stop being so mean, and I mean no one in particular, certainly not you. It turns people away from Catholicism. There’s a thread on that entire subject.
 
There is paperwork the priest could have filed without your sister’s knowledge. It depends on many things. The tribunal here can do nothing for you only for your sister or her husband. I think it is that way everywhere. The parish may or may not give answers to anyone but the two people who married. I know that sounds cruel but it is to protect their privacy.
I hope this works out for her.
 
So, it seems that what we have here is: two people, who were Catholic, had merely civil marriages. Those marriages ended in divorce. A priest then witnessed their (the two, aforementioned Catholics’) wedding within his own parish. Were there any other witnesses present at this wedding?

Dan
 
ConstantLearner said:
I assume nothing. I know it because both told me they did not seek an annulment.

I don’t know why you would ever think I would “assume” something so important about my own sister and brother-in-law. It’s rather shocking.
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I’m very sorry. I did not mean to offend. It is actually fairly common for people to ask questions here without even knowing what kind of assumptions they are making. As often as not, they’re here finding out what the questions are as much as what the answers are. I suppose it is shocking at first, except that people do it in spite of good faith and do it so often that it really isn’t shocking. It would not be a shocking assumption to believe that there was no finding of nullity because the process was fast. If a defect of form exists, however, that can be verified pretty quickly.

That took a long time to say that I wouldn’t have thought worse of you if you thought a divorced person could not be found free to marry in a short span of time. It is a fairly common assumption, and not without basis.
ConstantLearner said:
The priest seemed to think that because he performed the marriage in the rectory, it was not “in the Church.” I don’t see it that way, but he’s the priest, not me. Still, priests make mistakes. They are human.
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I am very confused, because you told us they were already married. Why would he file civil paperwork? Or do you mean you know they have a valid civil union because the priest is also an officer of the state?

I do know of a case where a priest kind of did the opposite. A couple of students, a US citizen and a citizen of Mexico, were getting married. The bride was from Mexico, so they were having a big church wedding with all the bells and whistles in Mexico at her parents’ church. In order to prevent immigration problems that come from a US citizen marrying a Mexican citizen in Mexico, they were counseled that it would be much easier for them legally if they had a civil marriage in the US. Well, they were young, and they wanted to be “really married” right now. The priest who did their marriage instruction in the US performed a Catholic wedding for them, so they’d be “really” married, but he only filed the paperwork with the state, not with the Church, so that her parents wouldn’t be disappointed to find they had the Church wedding already.

So yes, priests have been known to play very fast and loose with the rules, unfortunately, and if they’re going to do it at all they’re usually going to rationalize a way to do it for friends.

Do you think the first marriages did suffer from lack of form? The priest may be presuming that the paperwork will go through and wanted to make his friends happy by not requiring them to wait until an official answer came back. No, that is not kosher.

Is the marriage valid if it is performed before the chancery office has had a chance to verify that both of the first marriages suffered from defect of form? I have no idea. If you are saying the bishop would look dimly on the situation, at first glance I could only agree with you.

Do you know this priest yourself?
 
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acanonlawyer said:
So, it seems that what we have here is: two people, who were Catholic, had merely civil marriages. Those marriages ended in divorce. A priest then witnessed their (the two, aforementioned Catholics’) wedding within his own parish. Were there any other witnesses present at this wedding?
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Yes, there were two.
 
The reason I asked if you were also a friend of the priest is that if your sister is fine with it, the easiest thing might be to ask him to explain why these two Catholics weren’t given a Catholic wedding in the church, as is their right.

Everyone ought to be able to explain himself without being judged in advance. Your concern that he inexplicably chose to grant them a civil marriage when he didn’t know they weren’t actually married already to someone else is reasonable. If your sister doesn’t want your nose in the matter, though, you are taking on a lot by making inquiries without her consent. She is your sister, though. You are the expert on that matter.
 
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