Marriage by Catholics; avoid Tribunal Annullment process?

[Red73]

My fiance and I have been together for almost 7 years. I am previously divorced, not Catholic. I consider myself non-denominational. I want to make him and his family happy by marrying in the Catholic church, however, I am not willing to go through the annullment process due to the terms of the process (contacting my former spouse and sharing the questionnaires and file with him). I feel this is an invasion of my privacy, and as I’ve been divorced from him for more than 7 years now, I don’t see the need to drag him back into my life. Is there anyone who knows how we can be married in NC, considered valid by the church, without going through this process? This is supposed to be one of the happiest moments in my life and is now becoming a very stressful and sad time for me. I want to make my fiance and his family happy but I do not want to enter a marriage with resentment due to the fact that I had to go against my beliefs and wishes by opening up my personal history and current choices to the church, and my former spouse. I feel very strongly about this and am confused about how I am supposed be happy myself but accomodate everyone else’s wishes at the same time.

 

[1ke]

In a word: no.

I am sorry you are having anxiety over this. This is an absolute requirement for him to marry you, and if you do not feel you want to pursue it then perhaps that indicates you two are not meant to be married to each other.

I do suggest you get the book Annulment: The Wedding That Was by Michael Smith Foster which helps explain the whole process in an easy-to-read format.

And, you also need to be prepared for the eventuality that your marriage might be found to be VALID. If it is, you are not free to marry-- period.

It is not wise to be “engaged” or making any plans to move towards marriage until you know you are free to marry.

 

[Red73]

Thanks. It kind of goes a little deeper than I described. I have bent over backwards to do this the “Catholic” way. I believe that my previous marriage is not considered valid. We were married by a JP, although together for almost 12 years. The monsignor has about guaranteed that it would not be considered valid, but I know he is not the Tribunal decision.
Here is the situation: I was told if I signed the paperwork, it would go in our file. I was made a promise by the church and monsignor that no action would be taken on this annullment paperwork. Now, I don’t know who is capable of doing what in this religion, I’m not very familiar with it. I have been very open and honest that I have no desire to convert, and I have told the monsignor all along that if I were to fill out this paperwork, it would be with the stipulation that it not go to my former spouse. I have no qualms of the church looking into my past, getting information from my counselor, etc., even though I still don’t understand their need and do find it to be an invasion. However, I have agreed to raise any children that might come from this marriage in the Catholic faith, I have signed paperwork to this affect. I feel as though I’ve had to sign my life and unborn children over to this establishment.
Again, all I asked was that they not process the paperwork and send it to my former spouse. I had a promise from the monsignor that this would not happen. I found out this week that it had and the information was being sent to him. I was furious. I felt extremely betrayed and that since I am not Catholic, my requests, thoughts and feelings did not matter. What they wanted was all that mattered and they did what they pleased with my information. So, with that being said, I’ve expressed that I no longer wish to be married by this monsignor in his church.
I am still looking for a way to accomodate my fiance, whom I love and respect deeply, by finding a way to marry by a Catholic priest - just not by monsignor or in that church. I have serious trust issues now and feel that I will never matter to them.
If there is no other way, then I guess it’s up to me and my fiance to decide how important it is - either the church or our love.
I have no clue what else to do here. I have done all I can to make this work and then I was lied to and taken advantage of.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I think you’re missing some points somewhere, some miscommunication on something.

As somebody who has been through the process of decree of nullity (anullment), here are the steps usually taken (and I hope one of the canon lawyers will jump in and correct any of my errors):

• Get the parish priest to sign off on the necessary forms. These will include the last known address of your ex, along with the addrsses of people who can serve as witnesses.
• Fill out the questionnaire. This is mailed to your advocate, who hands it up to the tribunal.
• Your ex gets a blank questionnaire. He completes it or not, as he chooses, and includes any witnesses for his take on things. ###You should note that there is a chance he will not complete the questionnaire at all. This does not mean the tribunal proceeding cannot proceed. He’s given so long, and then he’s in default.#####
• If the questionnaire comes back because the ex has moved, the tribunal will serve your ex via publication.
• The tribunal also mails out different forms to the witnesses. The witnesess may or may not mail them back.
• The tribunal takes a look at the whole package and says there was a marriage or there was not.
• In either event, the first tribunal sends it to the Court of Second Instance for review. The Court of Second Instance rules, as well.
• You get a letter back saying you have a decree of nullity, or you don’t. There might also be in the letter certain conditions you must meet before you can marry in the Church (such as a couple counseling sessions, etc.).

That was my experience, anyway.

Do not be afraid to try another parish, BTW.

 

[1ke]

Thanks. It kind of goes a little deeper than I described. I have bent over backwards to do this the “Catholic” way.

I commend you for trying to do things in the way that will alllow your fiance to practice his faith. BUT, as I mentioned, this is an absolute requirement for him and it may mean parting ways in the end. So, be prepared for that. I don’t want to be the harbinger of doom-- it is possible the decree of nullity will be granted.

I believe that my previous marriage is not considered valid. We were married by a JP, although together for almost 12 years. The monsignor has about guaranteed that it would not be considered valid, but I know he is not the Tribunal decision.

Being married by the JP does not mean your marriage is invalid. Only Catholics are bound to Catholic form-- being married in a Catholic Church with a priest as witness. If your own denomination has no specific rules on the form of marriage, then yours can be valid if you were married in a church or civilly by a JP.

And, the priest should not have told you it is “about guaranteed”. He cannot know this. If he thought yourr grounds were strong grounds-- and hopefully he did not go overboard with enthusiasm. (Being married by the JP is not grounds).

Here is the situation: I was told if I signed the paperwork, it would go in our file. I was made a promise by the church and monsignor that no action would be taken on this annullment paperwork.

I don’t know why anyone would have told you this. It is absolutely not the case. I am sorry that this happened to you. The former spouse absolutely has a right to be a part of the nullity process-- they do not have to repsond in any way, but they are to be informed.

I suggest you contact the diocese and talk to the tribunal representative directly. Sounds like the priest at the parish is not that familiar with the process.

However, I have agreed to raise any children that might come from this marriage in the Catholic faith, I have signed paperwork to this affect. I feel as though I’ve had to sign my life and unborn children over to this establishment.

If you feel like this and aren’t even married yet, wow… don’t you think you need to re-evaluate. Mixed marriage is hard, and you seem to really have issues with this.

I was furious. I felt extremely betrayed and that since I am not Catholic, my requests, thoughts and feelings did not matter. What they wanted was all that mattered and they did what they pleased with my information. So, with that being said, I’ve expressed that I no longer wish to be married by this monsignor in his church.

I can understand that. I am sorry this happened to you at all.

I am still looking for a way to accomodate my fiance, whom I love and respect deeply, by finding a way to marry by a Catholic priest - just not by monsignor or in that church. I have serious trust issues now and feel that I will never matter to them.
If there is no other way, then I guess it’s up to me and my fiance to decide how important it is - either the church or our love.
I have no clue what else to do here.

You can be married by another priest, in another parish. But, it still requires that you be free to marry and that requires a decree of nullity for your first marriage. You aren’t free to marry.

Your fiance would be placing himself outside the church, barring himself from the Sacraments-- and imperiling his soul-- to marry invalidly. I am sorry that anyone would be in a position to consider making such a choice.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

My fiance and I have been together for almost 7 years. I am previously divorced, not Catholic. I consider myself non-denominational. I want to make him and his family happy by marrying in the Catholic church, however, I am not willing to go through the annullment process due to the terms of the process (contacting my former spouse and sharing the questionnaires and file with him). I feel this is an invasion of my privacy, and as I’ve been divorced from him for more than 7 years now, I don’t see the need to drag him back into my life. Is there anyone who knows how we can be married in NC, considered valid by the church, without going through this process? This is supposed to be one of the happiest moments in my life and is now becoming a very stressful and sad time for me. I want to make my fiance and his family happy but I do not want to enter a marriage with resentment due to the fact that I had to go against my beliefs and wishes by opening up my personal history and current choices to the church, and my former spouse. I feel very strongly about this and am confused about how I am supposed be happy myself but accomodate everyone else’s wishes at the same time.

There is no way to marry a Catholic if you are divorced and have not received a decree of nullity from the tribunal.

You do not contact your husband, the Tribunal does that.

They do not share any of your answers with him, your answers are for the Tribunals use.

They do not share your file with him, or any of your information even your address, or parish.

 

[Red73]

It’s very hard at this point not to feel the way I’ve described. This has been going on for about a year now. I am more than willing to raise our children this way, I go to church with my fiance and his family whenever asked or invited. I have no issues with any of this. However, I feel there was a little “something strange” going on when I was promised that the paperwork would not be processed and all could go on as planned with our wedding. Now it’s like, what is around the next corner that will prevent this from happening?
I did receive the questionnaire, as did my witnesses. It specifically states that my fiance will have access to view any and all information I submitted, and if a meeting was requested with the monsignor, that he would also have access to the file. I don’t know what that would involve - I doubt they would share my personal information such as counselor letters.
I contacted the local tribunal office and asked that they stop the process where they were. When I did, it was confirmed again in writing from this office, that he would receive his own questionnaire but would also have access to the one that I filled out and the file if he requested a meeting with the monsignor. Again, I have no idea how far this would go if the meeting were requested and scheduled.
I called monsignor before speaking with the tribunal. He acted as though we never had the conversation, or promise made to me, that the paperwork would not be processed. He suggested I contact the tribunal and request a cease and desist on their actions thus far. Then, he told me we would keep the date at the church and he would marry us - but get this - don’t share this info with the tribunal when you speak with them.
It all seems a little fishy to me. I just don’t get it. Why, if it’s so easy for him to keep the date and marry us, would he have me go through all of the heartache and anxiety of filling out the paperwork, the feeling of false promises and betrayal and finding it to have been done anyway; just to say he can overrule the tribunal and marry us anyway?
My fiance is on board and wants to continue with our plans here. Would this not be considered a valid marriage in the Catholic church if I never rec’d the nullity document? That would be the case if we continued down this path… I’m so confused!

 

[pnewton]

I think it is important to realize the postive benefits of an annulment process. It is true that the process can be trying and painful. But having gone through it myself, I also found it helpful to understanding myself from an outside point of view. I spent hours engaged in soul-searching that I otherwise would not have taken the time to do.

 

[Red73]

I’ve had several years of counseling for that reason, although I appreciate your thoughts on this. I am certainly aware of who I am, what I want and where I’m going. But this has completely thrown me for a loop. Very inconsistent information.
I don’t see at all how this will help me, other than to get me married to the one I love. But again, with the awful feelings I would have going into it.
I think possibly another church and priest might be our solution. I need to get more details from someone else on this annullment deal. I was obviously misled somewhere along the line.

 

[1ke]

Now it’s like, what is around the next corner that will prevent this from happening?

I am so sorry this has happened to you and I don’t blame you at all for being confused, hurt, and angry.

He suggested I contact the tribunal and request a cease and desist on their actions thus far. Then, he told me we would keep the date at the church and he would marry us - but get this - don’t share this info with the tribunal when you speak with them. It all seems a little fishy to me.

Run, don’t walk, away from this priest.

I don’t know what he is doing, but it is absolutely wrong. I would report the whole thing to the tribunal.

hy, if it’s so easy for him to keep the date and marry us, would he have me go through all of the heartache and anxiety of filling out the paperwork, the feeling of false promises and betrayal and finding it to have been done anyway; just to say he can overrule the tribunal and marry us anyway?

He has no authority to marry you. I don’t know if he’s senile, daft, or doing something malicious.

Seriously-- call the tribunal and report the whole thing. You’ve been hurt by this-- don’t let it happen to someone else.

My fiance is on board and wants to continue with our plans here. Would this not be considered a valid marriage in the Catholic church if I never rec’d the nullity document? That would be the case if we continued down this path… I’m so confused!

No, it would not be a valid marriage.

 

[Red73]

THANK YOU for confirming this for me. I’ve been made to feel like a complete fool but I cannot possibly see how this man is doing things the “right” way. He’s run me through the ringer and I’ve been hurt badly. I don’t want this to destroy a relationship that we’ve built so strong, for so long.
I need some help, from someone outside of this particular establishment. I knew something was wrong here.
I appreciate your thoughts and advice.

As for one of the earlier postings around the annullment docs… I know I would not be the one to contact my former spouse. But the paperwork I signed clearly states he would have access to that information - and again, confirmed by the local tribunal when I contacted them. I have it all in writing. I promise, I’m not making this up or losing my mind!!

 

[1ke]

I need some help, from someone outside of this particular establishment. I knew something was wrong here.
I appreciate your thoughts and advice.

I hope that this helps put your mind at ease-- you are not crazy.

I’m an amateur, not a canon lawyer. There is a poster here who is-- cameron_lansing. Perhaps if you private message him he will give you information. He’s a deacon and a canon lawyer. I don’t know his policy on private messaging and what he can and cannot do for you-- but it can’t hurt to ask.

As for one of the earlier postings around the annullment docs… I know I would not be the one to contact my former spouse. But the paperwork I signed clearly states he would have access to that information - and again, confirmed by the local tribunal when I contacted them. I have it all in writing. I promise, I’m not making this up or losing my mind!!

Yes, you are right. He does have the right to see the paperwork.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

This priest os not acting as he should. Get another one!!! 1ke is right. And DO call the tribunal and let them know what this priest is doing.

As for your ex- He can look at what you wrote, but he is not allowed to contact you about it, nor is he allowed to see your address, phone number and all that stuff. By the same token, you are allowed to see what your ex wrote, but not his address or phone number.

Do you have reason to fear for your safety if your ex sees your answers to the questionnaire? If so, tell your advocate, and he or she will help safeguard as much of your privacy as he or she can.

As a person who has been through a decree of nullity, and helped others through the process, you can’t be sure that your ex will even participate. A lot of exes, Catholic and non-Catholic, ball up the paperwork and pitch it; or send it in with a note across it to the effect, “I think this is bogus and I’m not going to fill it out. Tell him/ her too bad” and worse, thinking that if they don’t participate, the other party (you) will not get that anullment. It simply isn’t so.

 

[kage_ar]

Red 73 - First of all, prayers for you!!

Here is an analogy for you. You want to marry a man, this man is a citizen of State X in the USA and also a “citizen” of another place - the Catholic Church. In order for your marriage to be recognized by both, the marriage must take place under the rules of both.

You know the laws of your state/country. The laws of the Catholic Church were established by Jesus. In the Gospels, Jesus was very clear that marriage lasts til death.

You attempted marriage before, but, it may not have been valid. In order to be free to marry, the Church simply must investigate and see if that marriage was valid or not.

Prayers while you wait through this process!

 

[Cathryn]

I think you’re missing some points somewhere, some miscommunication on something.

As somebody who has been through the process of decree of nullity (anullment), here are the steps usually taken (and I hope one of the canon lawyers will jump in and correct any of my errors):

• Get the parish priest to sign off on the necessary forms. These will include the last known address of your ex, along with the addrsses of people who can serve as witnesses.
• Fill out the questionnaire. This is mailed to your advocate, who hands it up to the tribunal.
• Your ex gets a blank questionnaire. He completes it or not, as he chooses, and includes any witnesses for his take on things. ###You should note that there is a chance he will not complete the questionnaire at all. This does not mean the tribunal proceeding cannot proceed. He’s given so long, and then he’s in default.#####
• If the questionnaire comes back because the ex has moved, the tribunal will serve your ex via publication.
• The tribunal also mails out different forms to the witnesses. The witnesess may or may not mail them back.
• The tribunal takes a look at the whole package and says there was a marriage or there was not.
• In either event, the first tribunal sends it to the Court of Second Instance for review. The Court of Second Instance rules, as well.
• You get a letter back saying you have a decree of nullity, or you don’t. There might also be in the letter certain conditions you must meet before you can marry in the Church (such as a couple counseling sessions, etc.).

That was my experience, anyway.

Do not be afraid to try another parish, BTW.

This is also how my husband’s was handled. In no way did his ex-spouse read his questionaire, but I suppose she could have had access if she wanted to. She was sent her own and chose to ignore it. Towards the end of the process he was ask to speak to a Psychologist and had two sessions, and without the aid of his ex-spouse he was granted an annulment. My husband wanted the annulment even though he wasn’t Catholic. He also felt he benefited from the process. He did it for me, but was surprised how he benefited.

 

[Cathryn]

Please find a priest that you are comfortable with. You have a right to be angry of you were misled in any way.

 

[mikellie]

The overall premise of the question makes me want to ask what your true motivation is…

if you were wronged, find another parish/priest to help you

if something else is going on… do some soul searching and pray for God’s will (not your own) - this is hard to do…

Good luck…

 

[cecilia97]

This is also how my husband’s was handled. In no way did his ex-spouse read his questionaire, but I suppose she could have had access if she wanted to. She was sent her own and chose to ignore it. Towards the end of the process he was ask to speak to a Psychologist and had two sessions, and without the aid of his ex-spouse he was granted an annulment. My husband wanted the annulment even though he wasn’t Catholic. He also felt he benefited from the process. He did it for me, but was surprised how he benefited.

I’m finding that the process varies even WITHIN dioceses. There have been some surprises with mine…ie, my ex was given a deadline to participate, sent written word that he did NOT want to do so, and months later was allowed to change his mind and send in statements and witness testimonies.

We’re currently living in different dioceses. Usually, ONLY the two former spouses are able to ever read any of the statements…under supervision of Tribunal personnel. I was allowed to go read statements in the Tribunal offices. Since my ex lives very far away, he was allowed to request that copies of the statements be sent to his diocese, where he was able to read them.

Yes, several priests and your ex will read some personal things about you. The priests that I have dealt with have been very helpful and understanding. They would never share your details or lecture you on anything, as far as I can tell. And about your ex…don’t put any energy into caring what he thinks when he reads. He’s out of your life.

The process is painful, I’m not going to lie to anyone about that. But I think the pain leads to a lot of healing and insights about what happened. I’ve found some things about myself that will help if I ever get involved with another person. Not things I did wrong in my marriage, per se…tendencies I have that I learned (that we all learn) in childhood and now can change or use to help mself and love people better.

My counselor thinks the annulment process has helped a great deal in my divorce recovery.

I agree with the OP that it doesn’t seem right to have to deal with this while you’re in love and want to look forward. I started the process ASAP after my divorce for that very reason…like ripping off the bandaid. But I’d still say it’s worth doing if you want a strong relationship in the future.

 

[YADA]

THANK YOU for confirming this for me. I’ve been made to feel like a complete fool but I cannot possibly see how this man is doing things the “right” way. He’s run me through the ringer and I’ve been hurt badly. I don’t want this to destroy a relationship that we’ve built so strong, for so long.
I need some help, from someone outside of this particular establishment. I knew something was wrong here.
I appreciate your thoughts and advice.

As for one of the earlier postings around the annullment docs… I know I would not be the one to contact my former spouse. But the paperwork I signed clearly states he would have access to that information - and again, confirmed by the local tribunal when I contacted them. I have it all in writing. I promise, I’m not making this up or losing my mind!!

Should a third party rule on whether a couple [together] validly entered into a contract of any kind; without reviewing information gathered from both parties?

That is the question and the answer is no!

---

The fiirst question that comes to mind is what are you trying to hide or do not want revealed?

ALSO: You must be mis - reading the information provided…no one is ever allowed to view your file [like your former spouse unless you gave specific permission for them to do so-----for the to even obtain information from your therepist requires your consent for the therepist to release it and they could not allow another person to view that!!!]…

One of my husbands witnesses even wrote on his questionaire that he would never write any thing he would not say to a person directly [he is married to a sister of my husbands ex-wife]. He mailed my husband a copy of his anwers and I am sure mailed a copy to his ex-wif as well…Being [in -law] family I’ll bet he wished my hisband had not chosen him…however, he answered the questions honestly ad accurately from his personal observations…which was all my husband expected of him.

I also, went through an annullment process…I never viewed my ex’s responses or the witnesses, his or mine…confidentiality is carefully protected…all of the inforation I received indicated that confidentiality was important as they expect people to be candid and honest. Any discussion or inquiry necessary for clarification requires consent…I do not believe that there can be many variances between dioceses as they all follow Canon Law for the Tribunals…

That said, how would you feel if your ex was allowed to receive decree of nullity of your marriage and you were never even contacted for your (name removed by moderator)ut…

That you would desire a decision regarding an issue that concerned another without their knowledge is a concern…

How can the Church make an informed decision regarding the validity of this marriage if you do not allow them to contact the other half of the marriage? After all you married another individual, not yourself…the church should not ever rule on the marriage of two persons without the knowledge of both of those persons!

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE]

I have had some experience in this matter. I can recommend two books, on opposite sides of the issue, but which might be very helpful.

“Shattered Faith” by Sheil Rauch Kennedy, who was married to one of the Kennedy clan. She is not a Catholic, and her marriage was annuled. She fought against the situation, and the annulment. From what I hear recently, the Holy See reversed the decision, declaring her marriage still valid.

There is a movement, which is very upsetting to me, as a Catholic, of Chancery offices throughtout the US proceeding to invalidate many, too many marriages.

On the other side, and really explains the process: “Annulment - Your Chance to Remarry Within the Catholic Church”, by Joseph Zwack.

peace