Marriage can be denied if it cannot be consumated

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You do not understand. Infertility and impotence are not the same thing.
Regardless of wether a married person is infertile faulty eggs/sperm ] or impotent
cant perform the conjugal act ], it is still a valid marriage. Peter was married, did he have children? or did he like many from the period take a vow of celibacy despite being married?
 
Regardless of wether a married person is infertile faulty eggs/sperm ] or impotent
cant perform the conjugal act ], it is still a valid marriage. Peter was married, did he have children? or did he like many from the period take a vow of celibacy despite being married?
You don’t get to just re-define what marriage is because you like your idea of what its nature is better than what its nature has always been. There is a reason that they say that when a married couple has had sexual intercourse that the marriage has been “consummated”. Since Peter was married, be very sure that he consummated his marriage if either he or his wife wanted that–which we would not assume they did not–because consummation was required under Jewish law, too. No consummation, and the parties were not bound to honor the other aspects of their consent.

It is telling, BTW, that the English Matrimonial Causes Act 1973, a refusal or inability to consummate a marriage can be grounds for the marriage to be voided, and yet The Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill introduced into the UK parliament in 2013 specifically excluded non-consummation as a ground for the annulment of a same-sex marriage. It is also telling that the importance of the ability to consummate has been denigrated. It is because people want to divorce openness to procreation from the nature of what spouses can expect from the marriage contract!

Now note:
***Can. 1061 §1. **A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated; it is called ratum et consummatum if the spouses have performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is ordered by its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.

§2. After a marriage has been celebrated, if the spouses have lived together consummation is presumed until the contrary is proven.

§3. An invalid marriage is called putative if at least one party celebrated it in good faith, until both parties become certain of its nullity.*

No one comes to a married couple and asks if they’ve consummated their marriage. There isn’t a time clock running. This isn’t an invasive law. It is a law that guarantees that each spouse will realize in their relationship with each other the full nature of marriage. You can’t marry someone and then deny later that your promise to “love” had nothing to do with intercourse. You may think that is a marriage, but it is the right of someone else to say, “No, marriage requires consummation, and if my spouse give ‘consent’ but then can’t consummate, I have grounds to say that our contract has not been ratified.”

Do you want to have it both ways–that is, that if someone wants consummation to be necessary, it is necessary and if they don’t want that, it isn’t necessary–or do you think that spouses should have no right to expect their partner to consent freely to engage in sex open to procreation? Since the spouses do not have to testify to anyone that their marriage has been consummated, we are about as close to that as honesty allows–that is, if *neither spouse *wants to insist on their right to consummation, no one is coming around and checking. I don’t see a way around this…that is, either consummation is in the nature of marriage, as the Church says it is and as at least Western society has long held that it is, and therefore it is within the rights of the spouses to expect a willingness and ability in their spouse to consummate, or else it is not a right, and if your spouse never could (or never would) have sex with you in the natural human fashion, oh well, too bad for you.
 
Regardless of wether a married person is infertile faulty eggs/sperm ] or impotent
cant perform the conjugal act ],
it is still a valid marriage. Peter was married, did he have children? or did he like many from the period take a vow of celibacy despite being married?
It seems that if a couple can not have vaginal intercourse, then most likely they can not receive the Sacrament of Matrimony. They would need to speak with their pastor and maybe their bishop to discuss their situation.
 
Regardless of wether a married person is infertile faulty eggs/sperm ] or impotent
cant perform the conjugal act ], it is still a valid marriage. Peter was married, did he have children? or did he like many from the period take a vow of celibacy despite being married?
Where does this come from that people from that period took a vow of celibacy despite being married? I have not heard of that before.

FWIW, most traditional thoughts about Peter (and certainly supported by the Gospel accounts), was that he was an older widower at the time Christ called him. “Older” is relative, but his business partner was likely Zebedee, not Zebedee’s sons James and John. This is indicated by James and John following Peter’s lead when it comes to fishing. Peter’s mother-in-law is explicitly mentioned as living in Peter’s house. This would have been normal practice if his father-in-law had died and she moved in with her daughter and son-in-law. Peter’s wife is not mentioned, and it appears that his mother-in-law had assumed the duties of running the household, which would indicate his wife was not there, ie dead.
 
If they can’t have sex, then what makes the relationship any different from a dating relationship, or a close friendship?

My question is would it be sinful for a permanently impotent Catholic to marry by the state for the benefits?
:eek: Are you saying that without sex marriage is no different than any other relationship? I would strongly disagree.

And for the record I would have still married my husband even if he could never have sex. What we have is so much more important than that.
 
And for the record I would have still married my husband even if he could never have sex. What we have is so much more important than that.
However, being willing to marry someone who can never have sex is different than if the Church allows the Sacrament of Matrimony to be received by a couple who can not have intercourse.
 
However, being willing to marry someone who can never have sex is different than if the Church allows the Sacrament of Matrimony to be received by a couple who can not have intercourse.
To be honest if I were catholic and told I couldn’t marry my husband because he had a severe medical issue I would walk out of the church doors for the last time. In my eyes it is morally repugnant to deny marriage on something like that, and using sex as the only thing to distinguish between a marriage and any other relationship cheapens marriage.
 
To be honest if I were catholic and told I couldn’t marry my husband because he had a severe medical issue I would walk out of the church doors for the last time. In my eyes it is morally repugnant to deny marriage on something like that, and using sex as the only thing to distinguish between a marriage and any other relationship cheapens marriage.
This point is really misunderstood… Its not about the Church denying marriage because of a lack of sex, its a matter of the Church having a different understanding of what marriage is. It is an essential part of marriage that each spouse give the other the right to have relations with them, the whole “marital debt” thing. Now, if a person is unable to give this right to another due to being permanently and irreparably incapable of having relations then it would be impossible for them to contract a marriage as defined by the Church. That doesn’t mean they can’t have a deep and meaningful relationship or share their life together in a non-sexual way, it just means that because of the Church’s definition of marriage they are incapable of entering into the contract/union which the Church calls marriage. Does that make any more sense?
 
This point is really misunderstood… Its not about the Church denying marriage because of a lack of sex, its a matter of the Church having a different understanding of what marriage is. It is an essential part of marriage that each spouse give the other the right to have relations with them, the whole “marital debt” thing. Now, if a person is unable to give this right to another due to being permanently and irreparably incapable of having relations then it would be impossible for them to contract a marriage as defined by the Church. That doesn’t mean they can’t have a deep and meaningful relationship or share their life together in a non-sexual way, it just means that because of the Church’s definition of marriage they are incapable of entering into the contract/union which the Church calls marriage. Does that make any more sense?
It would be like hiring a guy in a wheelchair to do drywall in your house. It’s not an illogical discrimination.

I agree that people who are permanently impotent should have people in their lives for companionship, but why is marriage necessary for this type of companionship? A legal marriage may grant tax benefits, but in a religious marriage before God (where taxes are irrelevant) it is no different and pointless and does not further the purpose of marriage.
 
It would be like hiring a guy in a wheelchair to do drywall in your house. It’s not an illogical discrimination.

I agree that people who are permanently impotent should have people in their lives for companionship, but why is marriage necessary for this type of companionship? A legal marriage may grant tax benefits, but in a religious marriage before God (where taxes are irrelevant) it is no different and pointless and does not further the purpose of marriage.
I think its important to speak about it more compassionately than like that. Otherwise it can come across as though you mean that deep and personal relationships which are more meaningful than most friendships and with more of a commitment to share their lives with each other are impossible and irrelevent to those who are unable to have relations. Which is not the case at all. Such relationships are clearly possible and are good things. All that is being said is that marriage as defined by the Church (not marriage as meant by most people) is by its very nature something that such people are incapable of entering into. The problem being that most people, when they hear that the Church won’t let impotent people marry, are not thinking of the Church’s definition of marriage, and instead are thinking of a more loose definition such as “enter into a committed and loving relationship with each other whereby they share their lives together and live for the other”. Such a relationship is still permitted between people who are incapable of having relations, it just wouldn’t be called a marriage by the Church because it would still be missing an essential component of marriage as defined by the Church, the mutual giving of the right to relations to each other.
 
it is morally repugnant
How so?
using sex as the only thing to distinguish between a marriage and any other relationship cheapens marriage
Who said it was the only thing? How does it cheapen marriage? Does your endorsement of extramarital sex have something to do with your position?

+Sebastian
 
The focus on sex is interesting and sometimes I wonder if all the debate about the Church and sex “rules” for marriage is an indicator of the bigger societal problem we have now where we cannot even define or understand what marriage is. I am suspicious of those who want to make the argument that the original post makes and that is that unitive sex is not a part of what we should consider marriage. It smacks of the pro gay “marriage” arguments.

What happens if you turn the tables and make the statement that because someone has sex then they are married.

To be fair, Marriage can be denied for many many many reasons. Funny how we are arguing about just one of them.

Is this a huge issue I am unaware of? Do hoards and floods of couples become turned off by the Church because they do not want to have sex but the Church will not recognize their abnormal relationship?
 
And for the record I would have still married my husband even if he could never have sex. What we have is so much more important than that.
That is a nice thought but how do you know it?
You don’t because I am guessing he can. And like many of us you probably did before marriage. So how do you know that the love and bond you feel now would be unchanged by the absence of unitive sex?

Which came first? The deep attachment and spousal relationship you feel for your spouse or a night of passion?

Chicken or egg so to speak.
 
The focus on sex is interesting and sometimes I wonder if all the debate about the Church and sex “rules” for marriage is an indicator of the bigger societal problem we have now where we cannot even define or understand what marriage is. I am suspicious of those who want to make the argument that the original post makes and that is that unitive sex is not a part of what we should consider marriage. It smacks of the pro gay “marriage” arguments.

What happens if you turn the tables and make the statement that because someone has sex then they are married.

To be fair, Marriage can be denied for many many many reasons. Funny how we are arguing about just one of them.

Is this a huge issue I am unaware of? ** Do hoards and floods of couples become turned off by the Church because they do not want to have sex but the Church will not recognize their abnormal relationship?**
To be fair, sex does not have to be a part of marriage, there is such a thing as a Josephite marriage. However, whether or not a couple actually has relations, they have to be capable of giving each other the right to have relations if they want to, which is something they can only do if they are capable of having relations. So a couple that doesn’t want to have sex can validly marry according to the Catholic Church ,there marriage would simply be a Josephite marriage, however, if either one of them decided at any time that they wanted to have relations the other must be willing to do so. A Josephite marriage can turn into a normal marriage at any time at the request of even just one of the spouses.
 
To be fair, sex does not have to be a part of marriage, there is such a thing as a Josephite marriage. However, whether or not a couple actually has relations, they have to be capable of giving each other the right to have relations if they want to, which is something they can only do if they are capable of having relations. So a couple that doesn’t want to have sex can validly marry according to the Catholic Church ,there marriage would simply be a Josephite marriage, however, if either one of them decided at any time that they wanted to have relations the other must be willing to do so. A Josephite marriage can turn into a normal marriage at any time at the request of even just one of the spouses.
Yes, this is true but I think there are 2 issues here. 1 A josephite marraige is not exactly common. And 2 I think you need special permission to attempt a josephite marriage.
But that is an excellent point about the need to have the ability to change a Josephite marriage at any time.
 
Yes, this is true but I think there are 2 issues here. 1 A josephite marraige is not exactly common. And 2 I think you need special permission to attempt a josephite marriage.
But that is an excellent point about the need to have the ability to change a Josephite marriage at any time.
It was just that your post made it sound as though it would be wrong for two people to desire to enter into a marriage without sex. That would be a very wrong conclusion to draw and I wanted to make sure no one came away from this thread thinking that is what the Church believes or teaches. To be honest, I really don’t think you have very many people looking to enter into a marriage without relations in general, the reason people get upset when they hear about this isn’t because they wanted to enter a sexless marriage, its because they think the Church is trying to deny people the good of companionship and sharing their lives in a very deep special and meaningful way with other people, which is not at all the case. Its not because they personally are faced with this problem, but because they feel for the few who are.
 
It was just that your post made it sound as though it would be wrong for two people to desire to enter into a marriage without sex. That would be a very wrong conclusion to draw and I wanted to make sure no one came away from this thread thinking that is what the Church believes or teaches. To be honest, I really don’t think you have very many people looking to enter into a marriage without relations in general, the reason people get upset when they hear about this isn’t because they wanted to enter a sexless marriage, its because they think the Church is trying to deny people the good of companionship and sharing their lives in a very deep special and meaningful way with other people, which is not at all the case. Its not because they personally are faced with this problem, but because they feel for the few who are.
I agree, I think it is all driven by the faulty argument for gay “marriage” and also why that argument has so many people backing it. A complete lack of understanding of what marriage is. We live in an uneducated time with regard to theology and the Church in society. A time when we cannot even define marriage.
 
:eek: Are you saying that without sex marriage is no different than any other relationship? I would strongly disagree.

And for the record I would have still married my husband even if he could never have sex. What we have is so much more important than that.
No, we’re saying that consummation is in the nature of marriage and belongs in any expression of human sexuality. If you were to live with your best friend and never have any sex, you would be living as brother and sister. There is nothing wrong with that, but spouses have the mutual right to consummation.
 
Jimmy Aiken also explained this:
jimmyakin.org/2005/05/impotence_vs_in.html

a quote from that:
"Marriage* is *a union in which you give someone the right to have sex with you, and if you are unable to fulfill this commitment then you aren’t capable of granting someone this right. I can’t give someone right to have me turn lead into gold for them unless I first have the ability to turn lead into gold, and in the same way, a person permanently and untreatably unable to have sex cannot grant someone the right to have sex with them.

Marriage is not only companionship or love. An impotent person can have those things as much as anybody. But an essential characteristic of marriage is that it involves an exchange of the right to have sex (and actual sex, not just quasi-sexual behaviors)."
 
Maybe someone ought to look up the term “Josphite Marriage”…
 
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