Marriage Confusion

[MariaTS]

Since Same-Sex Marriage is so “horrible”, according to some Catholics, who do I marry? I can’t marry a man because I have boy parts. I can’t marry a woman because I live as my true self which is a woman. Why am I not allowed to marry anyone? Why can’t I be with the one I love until death do us part? Where is this condemned, where is this in the bible? Don’t quote any version of the bible written after 1800 because the mistranslations are rampant in the modern era. I know this, I have studied biblical history. Do you even know the real story of Sodom and Gomorrah or are you too wrapped up in the lies and propaganda which brainwashed the minds of millions?

 

[JohnDamian]

If I am to take from your post that you are a man who lives as a woman; I shall refer you to the following; both Scripture and Tradition;

Deuteronomy 22:5: “A woman shall not be clothed with man’s apparel, neither shall a man use woman’s apparel : for he that doeth these things is abominable before God.”

Persona Humana “Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered”

Catechism 2359 “Homosexual persons are called to chastity”

This is the Position of the Church on the matter of homosexuality.

The reasons for these positions are thus;

a) We are created male and female; so that through the Sacremental unity of marraige we may procreate the species in accordance with God’s commandment to multiply (Gen)

b) The sexual act in homosexual persons is not suited to the function of procreation; therein in the same way as contraception and masturbation are intrinsically disordered; so is homosexuality.

c) To act as though we are not is a grave sin against the eighth commandment.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Since Same-Sex Marriage is so “horrible”, according to some Catholics, who do I marry? I can’t marry a man because I have boy parts. I can’t marry a woman because I live as my true self which is a woman. Why am I not allowed to marry anyone? Why can’t I be with the one I love until death do us part? Where is this condemned, where is this in the bible? Don’t quote any version of the bible written after 1800 because the mistranslations are rampant in the modern era. I know this, I have studied biblical history. Do you even know the real story of Sodom and Gomorrah or are you too wrapped up in the lies and propaganda which brainwashed the minds of millions?

The “real story” of Sodom and Gomorrah? I’ve studied biblical history too. I’ve heard a few ‘recent’ theories about how ‘inhospitable’ the people were but that doesn’t change my view about the ‘truth’ of the story which most historians still consider was the sin of sexual perversions.

I do sympathize with your dilemna but have you ever considered that God might be calling you to a celibate life? That you don’t get a pass on carrying a cross (we ALL carry ones, and just because other people’s crosses look ‘easier’ to you because you think you would find it easier to carry anything but this one you have doesn’t make that true)? This isn’t about whether MARIA’s cross is ‘harder’ than other people’s, we aren’t in competition here. None of us carries a heavier cross than Christ did. That being said, it is still hard and I will pray for you to have strength.

 

[Dale_M]

If I am to take from your post that you are a man who lives as a woman; I shall refer you to the following; both Scripture and Tradition;

Deuteronomy 22:5: “A woman shall not be clothed with man’s apparel, neither shall a man use woman’s apparel : for he that doeth these things is abominable before God.”

John, that really is a poor verse to cite. Deuteronomy 22 is a chapter which lists legal prescriptions now considered archaic. They are not binding on Christians. If you read through chapter 22, you will find verses which are silly, to verses which are downright horrific. Plucking one verse out of the chapter, stripped of its context, renders it meaningless.

Persona Humana “Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered”

Catechism 2359 “Homosexual persons are called to chastity”

This is the Position of the Church on the matter of homosexuality.

Yes, of course. However, Maria is not homosexual, she is transsexual. Although she has male genitalia, she has a female sexual identity.

A reasonable conclusion is that as long as she has male genitalia, she shouldn’t have sex with a man. However, it seems reasonable that after surgery, and she has female genitalia, that sex with a man would be permissible… if she were married. However, rumor has it that during the past seven years or so, the Catholic Church has stopped allowing transsexuals to marry. And that seems to be her complaint.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

John, that really is a poor verse to cite. Deuteronomy 22 is a chapter which lists legal prescriptions now considered archaic. They are not binding on Christians. If you read through chapter 22, you will find verses which are silly, to verses which are downright horrific. Plucking one verse out of the chapter, stripped of its context, renders it meaningless.

Yes, of course. However, Maria is not homosexual, she is transsexual. Although she has male genitalia, she has a female sexual identity.

A reasonable conclusion is that as long as she has male genitalia, she shouldn’t have sex with a man. However, it seems reasonable that after surgery, and she has female genitalia, that sex with a man would be permissible… if she were married. However, rumor has it that during the past seven years or so, the Catholic Church has stopped allowing transsexuals to marry. And that seems to be her complaint.

“Female sexual identity”? I do understand what the statement says, but do you not get the irony of saying that “Male genitalia” wanting to have sex with men equals homosexuality?

MariaTS what is your genetic sex, XX or XY? That is the true test of actual gender, not how a person feels. Im sorry if that sounds “intolerant”, but “tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions” and my convictions follow the Church.

Hermaphrodites are called to chastity, unless they correct to their definitive genetic sex and those who are genetically female but have male genitalia for some reason also require this. Otherwise, it just doesnt work…

Father Corapi says “I feel for homosexuals, I really do. Because they are called to chastity, just as I am, and I know how hard that is.”

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[Dale_M]

“Female sexual identity”? I do understand what the statement says, but do you not get the irony of saying that “Male genitalia” wanting to have sex with men equals homosexuality?

erm…no, I don’t see the irony.

Would you being willing to explain, please, how that is ironic? If seems that same-sex relations are forbidden. So penis-penis and vulva-vulva combinations are right out.

MariaTS what is your genetic sex, XX or XY? That is the true test of actual gender, not how a person feels.

In your opinion, perhaps, but that opinion isn’t universally shared. The scientific understanding of transsexualism is still in its infancy, but preliminary findings suggest a biological basis. It may be a developmental error during pregnancy.

Im sorry if that sounds “intolerant”, but “tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions” and my convictions follow the Church.

The Church seems to be silent on the subject of transsexualism. Yes, there are passages in the Catechism which can be interpreted to cover it, but that is just an personal interpretation. I think the Church has been silent on the issue because it is awaiting a better scientific understanding before it takes a formal position.

I understand the temptation to lump transsexualism in with homosexuality, but the two are distinctly different. Transsexualism has to do with sexual identity, not sexual orientation.

 

[JohnDamian]

Yes, of course. However, Maria is not homosexual, she is transsexual. Although she has male genitalia, she has a female sexual identity.

I am afraid that is planly ridiculous. A person who was born male is male; no matter how confused they are. Likewise;

However, it seems reasonable that after surgery, and she has female genitalia,

Likewise; a mutilated man is still a man. Sorry to sound grim; but if we were to graft male organs onto a woman; or for that matter an animal - we could still no more marry then illegally; as we could ordain them. It is plainly absurd.

In your opinion, perhaps, but that opinion isn’t universally shared. The scientific understanding of transsexualism is still in its infancy, but preliminary findings suggest a biological basis. It may be a developmental error during pregnancy.

If it were biologically based; I would believe that people who are like this; like hemaphrodites; would be called to chastity. However; of course an official ruling would probably be necessary.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

erm…no, I don’t see the irony.

Would you being willing to explain, please, how that is ironic? If seems that same-sex relations are forbidden. So penis-penis and vulva-vulva combinations are right out.
The second part of this is the important distinction. If I am a man who “feels” like a woman, that does not make me a woman. If I have one X Chromosome and one Y Chromosome, then I am male. Period, end of story, close the book.

In your opinion, perhaps, but that opinion isn’t universally shared. The scientific understanding of transsexualism is still in its infancy, but preliminary findings suggest a biological basis. It may be a developmental error during pregnancy.
A developmental error could result in a woman (XX) being born with male genitalia. In that case it is permissible (I have no data to back this, but it is MHO) to “correct” that developmental error. Again, if it is a genetic male (XY) who is simple “confused” about gender, then that is not permitted.

The Church seems to be silent on the subject of transsexualism. Yes, there are passages in the Catechism which can be interpreted to cover it, but that is just an personal interpretation. I think the Church has been silent on the issue because it is awaiting a better scientific understanding before it takes a formal position.

I think that the Church has not touched on TS for the same reason. I would bet my shirt that they will come down the way I just described it, but there again, I dont want to lose my shirt, so I might not do that…

I understand the temptation to lump transsexualism in with homosexuality, but the two are distinctly different. Transsexualism has to do with sexual identity, not sexual orientation.

Sexual Identity is a feeling. Freedom of the will, which is a gift from God, allows us to NOT follow our feelings (which is freedom of choice). If I feel like a woman, but am a man, my freedom of will allows me to maintain in the gender that God has given me despite my own whims.

I am afraid that is planly ridiculous. A person who was born male is male; no matter how confused they are. Likewise a mutilated man is still a man. Sorry to sound grim; but if we were to graft male organs onto a woman; or for that matter an animal - we could still no more marry then illegally; as we could ordain them. It is plainly absurd.

If it were biologically based; I would believe that people who are like this; like hemaphrodites; would be called to chastity. However; of course an official ruling would probably be necessary.

I quoted JohnDamian for emphasis. I know this sounds harsh, but were I to not follow the truth I would be doing a disservice to MariaTS, myself, and my Lord who is the Truth (not a truth, but THE truth).

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[vz71]

Why am I not allowed to marry anyone?

You are.

You are subject to the same laws and restrictions as the rest of us.

The real question is why should we broaden the definition of marriage to encompass sinful behavior?

 

[MariaTS]

You are.

You are subject to the same laws and restrictions as the rest of us.

The real question is why should we broaden the definition of marriage to encompass sinful behavior?

No, I am not allowed to marry anyone. A transsexual woman cannot, legally or according to the church, marry a man or a woman. So, no I am not subject to the same laws and restrictions as you. Marrying the person I love would never be sinful, not in any possible reality of Christ’s teachings.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

No, I am not allowed to marry anyone. A transsexual woman cannot, legally or according to the church, marry a man or a woman. So, no I am not subject to the same laws and restrictions as you. Marrying the person I love would never be sinful, not in any possible reality of Christ’s teachings.

If you are male, you may marry a female. If you are female you may marry a male. If you are female but confused or male but confused, perhaps you are called to celibacy. I feel, however, that you are called to correct your views to be in line with those of God. If he created you male, live male. If he created you female, live female. Do not alter yourself to fit your feelings, alter your feelings to fit the person God created you to be.

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[MariaTS]

If you are male, you may marry a female. If you are female you may marry a male. If you are female but confused or male but confused, perhaps you are called to celibacy. I feel, however, that you are called to correct your views to be in line with those of God. If he created you male, live male. If he created you female, live female. Do not alter yourself to fit your feelings, alter your feelings to fit the person God created you to be.

Transsexualism is not a choice, it is a proven biological as well as medical condition. God created me to be a woman, I cannot change that. I have not altered myself to fit my feelings, I have altered myself to fit my spirit, my soul, my heart, my mind, my genetics. It doesn’t matter what you think, I know what God thinks. I’m not confused, I know that I am female. I believe in celibacy until marriage, all who are unmarried are called to celibacy.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

You are.

You are subject to the same laws and restrictions as the rest of us.

The real question is why should we broaden the definition of marriage to encompass sinful behavior?

No, I am not allowed to marry anyone. A transsexual woman cannot, legally or according to the church, marry a man or a woman. So, no I am not subject to the same laws and restrictions as you. Marrying the person I love would never be sinful, not in any possible reality of Christ’s teachings.

vz71 is correct, the Church never required any marriage or sex. The fundemental misunderstanding is the Church teaches celibacy is the standard and relations are a part of a marriage. No where does the Church require anyone to marry. Transexual are asked no more than single persons or priests.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Transsexualism is not a choice, it is a proven biological as well as medical condition. God created me to be a woman, I cannot change that. I have not altered myself to fit my feelings, I have altered myself to fit my spirit, my soul, my heart, my mind, my genetics. It doesn’t matter what you think, I know what God thinks. I’m not confused, I know that I am female. I believe in celibacy until marriage, all who are unmarried are called to celibacy.

Again, what is your genetic sex? If you are genetically female, then you are female. If you are genetically male, then you are male. All other options are incorrect. I apologize profusely if this sounds harsh, but it is truly out of love.

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[MariaTS]

Again, what is your genetic sex? If you are genetically female, then you are female. If you are genetically male, then you are male. All other options are incorrect. I apologize profusely if this sounds harsh, but it is truly out of love.

I am physically male, in that I have male genitals and used to appear male. However, transsexualism is a biological and medical condition and they have been unable to find male brain patterns or mannerisms. My sex-chromosomes are XY, but there are at least seven different combinations of chromosomes and even more combinations of genitalia caused by hormonal imbalances in utero. So neither hormones or chromosomes are good detectors of biological sex. So, I really don’t know which genetic sex I am. Also, claiming that I am male is not acting with love, it is acting with hatred and cruelty.

 

[adstrinity]

Maria, here’s a question, are you pre-op or post-op?

Anyway, He created them male & female to marry. We know He created others, but, the Bible does not tell us that these, neither female nor male, or both female and male, were created for marriage.

But, the question stands, and I think it’s worth answering.

 

[vz71]

I am physically male, in that I have male genitals and used to appear male. However…

Still does not matter.

You are still subject to the same laws and rules as everyone else.

You may consider your options narrowed; but the rules are the same across the board. It is not the fault of the church nor is it an injustice.
And others are not treated differently.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I am physically male, in that I have male genitals and used to appear male. However, transsexualism is a biological and medical condition and they have been unable to find male brain patterns or mannerisms. My sex-chromosomes are XY, but there are at least seven different combinations of chromosomes and even more combinations of genitalia caused by hormonal imbalances in utero. So neither hormones or chromosomes are good detectors of biological sex. So, I really don’t know which genetic sex I am. Also, claiming that I am male is not acting with love, it is acting with hatred and cruelty.

How are genes not a good detector of biological sex? The only wishy washy combination I know of is XXY…

Genes are, in a sense, the instruction booklet given by God for how our bodies are intended to be built. If genetically you are female, but hormonal issues caused you to grow male, isnt that a diversion from God’s instructions? Knowing that you are genetically female would make me come down on (what I think is) your side in this.

But vz71 has a point, people are not mandated to marry, copulate, or have a family. Paul says that the higher road is celibacy, with marriage being a consolation to those who cannot control their concupiscence.

And, ftr, I never said that you were male, only that you are whatever God made you. Feelings are absolutely irrelevant in this. If I FEEL that my chair is really a great white shark, that does not make it so. Since your genes say that you are intended to be female, I think that satisfies the “whatever God made you”, although I cannot claim to begin to understand what you have gone through.

Still does not matter.

You are still subject to the same laws and rules as everyone else.

You may consider your options narrowed; but the rules are the same across the board. It is not the fault of the church nor is it an injustice.
And others are not treated differently.

Quoted, since its a good statement.

 

[MariaTS]

Maria, here’s a question, are you pre-op or post-op?

Anyway, He created them male & female to marry. We know He created others, but, the Bible does not tell us that these, neither female nor male, or both female and male, were created for marriage.

But, the question stands, and I think it’s worth answering.

Why does it matter if I am pre-op or post-op? Anyways, I am non-op, because the surgery would be too dangerous for me and I don’t think I need to modify my genitals to be female.

 

[MariaTS]

Still does not matter.

You are still subject to the same laws and rules as everyone else.

You may consider your options narrowed; but the rules are the same across the board. It is not the fault of the church nor is it an injustice.
And others are not treated differently.

The fact that I am treated differently is injustice. I am not subject to the same marital laws, since I am not, legally, allowed to marry a man or a woman.