Marriage dilemma - medical/NFP/health

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lauriesings

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Hi,
I’m wondering if any married couples out there have dealt with a situation(s) in which a competent doctor has determined that pregnancy or future pregnancy would be fatal. I know this is very specific and won’t apply to most people. But for any where it has, how have you handled it? I believe that NFP would be too risky in this situation and abstinence would be the only choice. How would you handle the emotional toll this would place on a young couple?
I’m prone to think that the emotional end would be harder than the physical, though abstinence is certainly not desirable to my knowledge, especially for men.
Any insight would be great…thank you!
 
This is always a very difficult situation. The short answer is to pray and consult your pastor. As a Catholic, the primary licit means is NFP (or some other kind of natural method). Keeping yourself open to life is so very critical, even if you never want to get pregnant. (I know that sounds odd.)

Keep an open mind as well. If you really learn NFP you will see that it is very effective, even when you take into consideration odd cycles. If you really work to master it and have faith that the Lord will not send you something you cannot handle, you can make the physical side of your marriage rewarding.

As a guy who has been through the abstaince side of marriage (just had a baby, don’t want to get pregnant again) I can really really really really feel the pain of not being with my wife as I was used to. But in the end, it strengthed our marriage more than I ever thought possible.

Just remember that nothing is impossible with God.
 
lauriesings said:
Hi,
I’m wondering if any married couples out there have dealt with a situation(s) in which a competent doctor has determined that pregnancy or future pregnancy would be fatal. I know this is very specific and won’t apply to most people. But for any where it has, how have you handled it? I believe that NFP would be too risky in this situation and abstinence would be the only choice. How would you handle the emotional toll this would place on a young couple?
I’m prone to think that the emotional end would be harder than the physical, though abstinence is certainly not desirable to my knowledge, especially for men.
Any insight would be great…thank you!
Click to expand...
The poster **rayne89 **has been using NFP for 12 years to avoid due to her life-threatening cardiac issue. Search her posts on the topic.

Conservative NFP using the post ovulatory period is an option. And, Marquette Model NFP employs a fertility monitor.
 
Thanks for the replies thus far. For clarification, there isn’t a question about “doing the right thing.” That’s why abstinence is the only answer in this situation.

What I’m moreso wondering about is where to turn for support in facing this extremely difficult situation. Is there anything/one other than a priest that would provide counseling, assistance etc. to the couple facing this situation?

From a mental standpoint, one area of great challenge is being able to see God as loving. Taking away having sexual intercourse to a young couple (or couple of any age) seems punitive. This doesn’t radiate with seeing that God cares for us and loves us. How could one of God’s greatest gifts be turned around in such a way to result in such the opposite, death of a spouse? I thinks it’s especially hard since it is a known situation and not something that would be unexpected.
 
I wonder if CCL or the Pope Paul VI Institute might be able to connect couples facing this heroic struggle.
 
A more acceptable double method is NFP with abstinence during fertile periods, and using non-spermicidal, non-lubricated condoms during a woman’s infertile period. I think some of the fertility monitors such as Ovacue are very accurate according to their website.
zetek.net/
ladycomp.org.uk/show.php/en/online_store_5
Never bought from either website.

Ovacue can be used to prevent and conceive.
 
budgie2 said:
A more acceptable double method is NFP with abstinence during fertile periods, and using non-spermicidal, non-lubricated condoms during a woman’s infertile period.
Click to expand...
Please stop posting this. It is untrue. You keep posting this nonsense on thread after thread. You have been corrected more than once.

Contraception is always a moral evil-- every kind of contraception is a moral evil. There is no such thing as “a more acceptable double method” consisting of natural family planning AND contraceptives.

STOP posting this on every thread that has to do with natural family planning. It does NOT accurately reflect Church teaching. Church teaching is unambiguous: EVERY method of contraception is morally evil and to be rejected. It is immoral to use ANY form of contraception in ANY circumstance. Period.

The OP **clearly **stated that they intended to follow church teaching.

This thread is about *total *abstinence versus *periodic *abstinence not about contraception.
 
I don’t understand the question fully. Would the couple feel ‘safer’ if they were using a pill or condom to prevent the dnagerous pregnancy? On what data do they base their feelings?

NFP is acceptable to the Church precisely because it PUSHES the couple back towards considering kids. The sacrifice of abstinance is, IMO, why many NFP users have lots of kids. It burns away phony reasons to avoid more kids. Those with serious health issues have a genuine reason to avoid and tend to stick to the rules pretty rigorously!

If you used very conservative NFP methods (say Billings method with no early days and abstinance until peak + 5 days), there’s virtually no chance of getting pregnant if you understand the method and your body is putting out healthy fertility symptoms. NFP isn’t voodoo. It’s just a scientific method of observation to tell when a woman is fertile. Once the egg is a few days out of the ovary, she just CAN’T get pregnant until her next cycle.
 
While it is not a Catholic forum, the ovusoft forums may help you.

The women there purpose to use charting as a means to concieve or avoid pregnancy.

You may find some women in your precise shoes who “chart” (IOW they use FAM or NFP or some similar variation that uses no medicines or barriers to avoid pregnancy) for precisely your reasons.

I came across those boards in 2006 when I miscarried and found their knowledge to be invaluable.

You will not get Catholic doctrine there and it is important not to disregard your Church in your marriage and family decisions–but for someone in your shoes, it would be CRITICAL to find someone for support.

This is just based on my memory–they have a TTA board which stands for Trying to Avoid and you may find someone in your exact same shoes to see how it is working for them.

Additionally, a Catholic counselor as well as your priest if you are comfortable would be key to your marriage.

NFP when taught properly should have a counseling couple available to you for any questions and concerns practically at any time. Ours will still review our charts if we needed assistance despite our NFP class being held 8 years ago.

Budgie2: Depsite not wanting to put foreing objects in your nethers, I am shocked that you would suggest a condom that is 100% against church teaching.

OP–without knowing what the complication is that would make pregnancy fatal for you, it is pretty much impossible to help counsel you on this matter to the specifics of NFP and agree that you must suffer through abstinence or why God would do this to you.

Lots of bad things happen to good people and it isn’t necessarily a punishment from God.

Things–many external factors could have affected you that caused this anomaly that were created by humans with free will.

I’m talking out of my ear here, but that is as best as I can explain it without knowing what you are talking about.

Another thing–perhaps to consult a PRIEST as well as a physician is the churches position on whether a hysterectomy is appropriate in your case.

Now–don’t shoot me–I am unclear of whether you must abstain if your plumbing is medically mandated to be removed…I have a friend that this happened to and 'I think she is in good standing. However–her plumbing was removed due to an active medical condition and not to avoid having children. I do not recall the specific condition nor the status of her sex life though.

I am only offering that up as the only other 100% effective method. But I am unclear if you would qualify since the purpose of removal is to avoid pregnancy and that is very much against the church.
 
We have been using NFP (sympto-thermal) for 12 years to avoid, also. My wife takes drugs that would cause birth defects or worse, so we are careful.

People who can’t get pregnant needn’t give up entirely. There are ways to use NFP that I would venture are 100% effective, such as determining the non fertile time after ovulation and then adding two days more of abstinence. Or more. Isn’t one or two days a month better than nothing? I’m talking in the most extreme situation.

Consult someone who is an expert on whatever method will be used.
 
budgie2 said:
A more acceptable double method is NFP with abstinence during fertile periods, and using non-spermicidal, non-lubricated condoms during a woman’s infertile period. I think some of the fertility monitors such as Ovacue are very accurate according to their website.
zetek.net/
ladycomp.org.uk/show.php/en/online_store_5
Never bought from either website.

Ovacue can be used to prevent and conceive.
Click to expand...
Why do you persist in giving this immoral advice? I seriously think you should discuss this with your confessor the next time you visit him. You know the church does not permit contraception.
 
Budgie2, many of your postings are “more Catholic than the pope” in terms of what you find morally reprehensible. But here you suggest the use of condoms as a barrier contraceptive, which are never, never okay. Ever.

The couple described in this thread are called to heroic virtue, and they are not trying to skirt it or cheat through it. It’s a heavy, heavy cross to bear, but I know from personal experience that God doesn’t call without offering everything we need, and he showers grace on us when we accept the challenge. Heroic virtue is not a result of just showing up on Sundays.

Somewhere out there are people who need to be ministered to by this couple, and this will prepare them for it. They need support, not an escape.

Not directed to anyone personally, but so often I meet people who need so much to be served with the kind of love that only comes out of this kind of trial. The Church needs saints and heroes, and we don’t get there by shortcuts.
 
I have several serious health problems including Crohn’s disease as well as a blood clotting disorder where my body throws clots for no reason due to a genetic disorder. Normal blood thinners are out as I almost bled to death TWICE and was transfused 2 units. I had a 12" clot on my brain 4 yrs. ago that was inoperable and almost did me in as well.

I was told my by my hematologist (she’s pro NFP) that I am too much of a high risk to get pregnant as I could bleed out and die due to being on IV coumadin or heparin (was already proven after my stroke–bled out and was hospitalized) or throw clots (had 4 of them, 3 DVTs within 7 yrs. and then the clot on my brain).

DH & I have been using NFP for almost 12 yrs. to avoid conceiving. It has worked wonderfully for us b/c it’s one less pill for me to take, it won’t interfere w/any of my treatments, and it’s easy to use. DH knows the seriousness of my health issues and would never consider putting his needs before mine as he was scared of losing me when I had my stroke. It took a good yr. for me to recover as I was partially paralyzed on my entire right side and needed PT & OT to regain my strength back.

We do other things to show how much we love each other such as cooking a special meal, planning a “date night”, attending mass together, etc. It does require cooperation from both partners, self control, and patience, but isn’t that what marriage is all about? We’ve gained so much by using NFP instead of using hormones b/c with NFP it emphasizes respect for one another and self control. Can the said be same for contraceptives?? Anybody can use NFP. Even if a woman’s cycle is all over the place, it can be done. I’m speaking from experience as I am currently premenopausal and I haven’t had a normal cycle in over a yr. Good luck to you.
 
manualman said:
I don’t understand the question fully. Would the couple feel ‘safer’ if they were using a pill or condom to prevent the dnagerous pregnancy? On what data do they base their feelings?

NFP is acceptable to the Church precisely because it PUSHES the couple back towards considering kids. The sacrifice of abstinance is, IMO, why many NFP users have lots of kids. It burns away phony reasons to avoid more kids. Those with serious health issues have a genuine reason to avoid and tend to stick to the rules pretty rigorously!

If you used very conservative NFP methods (say Billings method with no early days and abstinance until peak + 5 days), there’s virtually no chance of getting pregnant if you understand the method and your body is putting out healthy fertility symptoms. NFP isn’t voodoo. It’s just a scientific method of observation to tell when a woman is fertile. Once the egg is a few days out of the ovary, she just CAN’T get pregnant until her next cycle.
Click to expand...
This is not a question about contraception versus NFP.

The OP does not intend to use contraception, they know it is morally wrong.

The question is about NFP versus total abstinence. The OP is concerned enough about whatever medical condition the wife has to consider total abstinence. They are asking if any others have taken this step due to serious health concerns. They are asking about how couples have handled the decision.

I don’t know any couples who have opted for **complete **abstinence, most use very conservative NFP-- such as the post ovulatory phase plus fertility monitors.

It was very common years ago when a woman might be advised against further pregnancy, and husbands who loved their wives willingly opted for continence. And, of course some married couples who felt called to continence to pursue work for the Kingdom are documented (many have become Saints). This is a heroic virtue not all married couples are called to.

The OP was looking for support in their decision to abstain completely, not wanting to use contraception.
 
lauriesings said:
Hi,
I’m wondering if any married couples out there have dealt with a situation(s) in which a competent doctor has determined that pregnancy or future pregnancy would be fatal. I know this is very specific and won’t apply to most people. But for any where it has, how have you handled it? I believe that NFP would be too risky in this situation and abstinence would be the only choice. How would you handle the emotional toll this would place on a young couple?
I’m prone to think that the emotional end would be harder than the physical, though abstinence is certainly not desirable to my knowledge, especially for men.
Any insight would be great…thank you!
Click to expand...
To address the OP, yes, we (my wife and I) were in this situation.

Our choices were either NFP or Celebacy. Since NFP had failed us twice before, even when we were super careful, we didn’t really have a choice. It was made for us.
Just as a side note, NFP is not as accurate as some claim. It honestly varies from person to person. Most methods are extremely scientific in nature, not user friendly and seems to be varying in effectiveness with different people.
Some will argue that it’s all user errors, and more refresher courses should be taken and all that, but all I know is that myself and many others followed the “rules” to the letter and we still got pregnant.
Anyway, I’m sure that Pro-NFP crowd will jump all over this, but that’s not the subject.

The subject is how we handled it and did it take a toll? And Was the toll emotional or physical.

Well, to put it bluntly, it was hell.
We tried to handle it in the best way we knew how. We showed each other affection in other ways, we planned romantic dates, massages, flowers, etc…we read books, like the 5 love languages, and the proper care and feeding of husbands (Yeah, I know 🙂 )
We charted together, kept communication going on all fronts, we really addressed the issues.
But, nothing helped.
In the long run, things deteriorated. The pain (from my wife and I) of not being able to be intimate with the one you love is like a stake in the heart.
It’s not the same as a single celibate person.
We live together, sleep together, we see each other naked, but we can’t be intimate. It’s painful…emotionally and physically, but more so emotionally, you got that one right.
Also, for women, they are much more, shall we say, “susceptible” during ovulation, so for my wife to be constantly denied when she that is pure torture.

So, even though we did all these things together, the fact that we were not intimate became more and more difficult. It was definitely something that was happening to us and causing a rift between us.
We spoke about it and how we felt, but what could we do? There was no other way. We knew that NFP wasn’t accurate for us, so our only option was to remain celibate and do as much as we can.

I hope this gave you some insight. 👋
 
Is anyone unable to use NFP? If so, are you living complete abstinance? How have you handled this situation? What is your relationship with God?
 
PennitentMan said:
To address the OP, yes, we (my wife and I) were in this situation.

Our choices were either NFP or Celebacy. Since NFP had failed us twice before, even when we were super careful, we didn’t really have a choice. It was made for us.
Just as a side note, NFP is not as accurate as some claim. It honestly varies from person to person. Most methods are extremely scientific in nature, not user friendly and seems to be varying in effectiveness with different people.
Some will argue that it’s all user errors, and more refresher courses should be taken and all that, but all I know is that myself and many others followed the “rules” to the letter and we still got pregnant.
Anyway, I’m sure that Pro-NFP crowd will jump all over this, but that’s not the subject.

The subject is how we handled it and did it take a toll? And Was the toll emotional or physical.

Well, to put it bluntly, it was hell.
We tried to handle it in the best way we knew how. We showed each other affection in other ways, we planned romantic dates, massages, flowers, etc…we read books, like the 5 love languages, and the proper care and feeding of husbands (Yeah, I know 🙂 )
We charted together, kept communication going on all fronts, we really addressed the issues.
But, nothing helped.
In the long run, things deteriorated. The pain (from my wife and I) of not being able to be intimate with the one you love is like a stake in the heart.
It’s not the same as a single celibate person.
We live together, sleep together, we see each other naked, but we can’t be intimate. It’s painful…emotionally and physically, but more so emotionally, you got that one right.
Also, for women, they are much more, shall we say, “susceptible” during ovulation, so for my wife to be constantly denied when she that is pure torture.

So, even though we did all these things together, the fact that we were not intimate became more and more difficult. It was definitely something that was happening to us and causing a rift between us.
We spoke about it and how we felt, but what could we do? There was no other way. We knew that NFP wasn’t accurate for us, so our only option was to remain celibate and do as much as we can.

I hope this gave you some insight. 👋
Click to expand...
My DH and I have serious reasons to avoid pregnancy as well. We have learned several methods–Billings, STM, and Creighton–but none can accurately identify fertility. I consulted a NPF only doctor for a year or so, but he eventually told me that he could help me. This is not the only cross I bear, so at this point I am in crisis. I am particularly interested in knowing how this extraordinary suffering has effected your relationship with God.
 
DeannaMarie said:
My DH and I have serious reasons to avoid pregnancy as well. We have learned several methods–Billings, STM, and Creighton–but none can accurately identify fertility. I consulted a NPF only doctor for a year or so, but he eventually told me that he could help me. This is not the only cross I bear, so at this point I am in crisis. I am particularly interested in knowing how this extraordinary suffering has effected your relationship with God.
Click to expand...
I honestly feel your pain, but I do not have any advice on how to handle this.
We tried all the methods recommended and read all the books. You might give all that a try though, that might work better for you and your marriage than it did for me and mine.

From my post above, here’s the advice I was given, with book titles in bold:
We tried to handle it in the best way we knew how. We showed each other affection in other ways, we planned romantic dates, massages, flowers, etc…we read books, like the 5 love languages, and the proper care and feeding of husbands
We charted together, kept communication going on all fronts, we really addressed the issues. We tried to handle it in the best way we knew how. We showed each other affection in other ways, we planned romantic dates, massages, flowers, etc…we read books, like the 5 love languages, and the proper care and feeding of husbands (Yeah, I know )
We charted together, kept communication going on all fronts, we really addressed the issues.
Click to expand...
Maybe this will work for you but to be truthful, it was the beginning of the end for my faith. It was the catalyst that turned me into an agnostic/atheist.
I’m sorry to tell you this and I won’t go into details, because that’s not what you want to hear.

PM me if you want to chat, but this will not be the right place for me to vent 🙂

Good luck!
PM.
 
Thank you for the replies. At this point, I believe that prayer is the best answer. Perhaps God will grant a loss of fertility. I know that for many this is not good, but it could in this case be a blessing.

I know this is truly not a situation a person can understand unless they have been through it. Fortunately, there are few that have suffered such.

The commandment of “Thou shall not kill” resounds. If a couple knows pregnancy will cause death, it seems basic that they could not engage in sex, since sex causes pregnancy and this would cause death.

I wish there were an alternative!
 
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