Marriage, Divorce and Annulment

[slh3016]

Thanks again, Bill. I go back and forth between admiration of her and wanting to kick her ex in the you-know-what. It was not only hard on the wife, but it also took a toll on my friend and his younger sister as you might imagine. .

I can deeply empathize with your friend. My {non-Christian} parents divorced 2 1/2 years ago after 38 years of marriage in which my dad was a serial adulterer from day one. It definitely takes its toll, but divorce is hard on children, even when you are 35 at the time

My mom endured it all because she grew up in a broken home traveling back and forth over her childhood and she didn’t want my brother and I to endure that. We’d have lost our home and our financial situation would have been devastating.

 

[Tommy999]

I can deeply empathize with your friend. My {non-Christian} parents divorced 2 1/2 years ago after 38 years of marriage in which my dad was a serial adulterer from day one. It definitely takes its toll, but divorce is hard on children, even when you are 35 at the time

My mom endured it all because she grew up in a broken home traveling back and forth over her childhood and she didn’t want my brother and I to endure that. We’d have lost our home and our financial situation would have been devastating.

Your situation sounds a bit similar to that of my friend, slh3016, except your mom wasn’t a believer at the time, although she still sounds like a mom who very much loved her kids. I’m sorry you had to endure that with your dad.

It sounds like the Lord has blessed your life in spite of it all, though. I am grateful for that and am grateful you have volunteered to share your insights on some of my threads. I appreciate it a lot.

 

[1ke]

If I understand correctly then, divorce is civil, so even if one of them had gotten a divorce, they still would’ve been married in the eyes of the Church unless or until she petitioned or filed for an annulment and was granted it, right?

Correct.

If that’s the case, wouldn’t serial adultery on the part of the other spouse, especially if he was unrepentant and wound up divorcing her – which I think he did – be a strong case to allow for an annulment for her?

Not necessarily.

Again, the act of adultery is not in itself *grounds *for a decree of nullity. A decree of nullity is a finding that *at the time the vows were exchanged *a specific defect or impediment existed. The grounds for a decree of nullity are few and well defined in Church law.

Being a scoundrel after the exchange of vows does not make the marriage invalid. If he had a defect of consent or intent when he exchanged vows– i.e. never intending to be faithful-- then that *defect *would be *grounds *for a decree of nullity (if it could be proven through witnesses). His behavior before, during, and after the wedding might be evidence of this defect.

Having an affair doesn’t necessarily mean you didn’t *intend *at the time of your vows to be faithful.

 

[1ke]

These are just a few of the reasons that IMHO that the annulment process needs to be streamlined.

A valid marriage cannot be declared null, streamlined process or not.

The Church allows for physical separation and civil divorce when safety or other rights are in jeopardy.

 

[Tommy999]

A valid marriage cannot be declared null, streamlined process or not.

The Church allows for physical separation and civil divorce when safety or other rights are in jeopardy.

Thanks for clarifying the finer points of the process, 1ke. I appreciate it I understand it a lot more now. Thanks for bearing with me.

It sounds like the advice would be to make sure you get to know your prospective spouse well enough in advance to know who they really are on the inside, including their character – because marriage is a lifetime commitment. That’s why I am a proponent of longer courtships instead of a rush to get married, but that’s just me.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Thanks, Della and 1ke. Very helpful.

Who in the CC decides whether someone’s previous marriage was valid? Is it someone at their diocese or does the case go to someone else at the national level or even to Rome to make that determination? Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject.

In addition to DCNBILL’s information, there can be as many as three dioceses where the marriage may be investigated (depending on how widely traveled the parties are):

• 
  *]The diocese where the marriage took place
  *]The diocese where the respondent actually resides
  *]The diocese where the petitioner actually resides
  
  I believe the diocese of the respondent gets priority over the petitioner’s diocese. I do not know if the diocese of the marriage has or lacks any priority.
  
  tee
  Not A Canon Lawyer

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks, tee, and to everyone else who responded. I’ve got a much better picture and understanding now.

 

[DCNBILL]

In addition to DCNBILL’s information, there can be as many as three dioceses where the marriage may be investigated (depending on how widely traveled the parties are):

• 
  *]The diocese where the marriage took place
  *]The diocese where the respondent actually resides
  *]The diocese where the petitioner actually resides
  
  I believe the diocese of the respondent gets priority over the petitioner’s diocese. I do not know if the diocese of the marriage has or lacks any priority.
  
  tee
  Not A Canon Lawyer

• 
  From what the Tribunal tells me the diocese in which the marriage took place always has competency even though the case may be investigated in one of the other two.
  
  The vast majority of cases that I have been involved in have been tried in the diocese of the petitioner with the permission of the respondents diocese.

 

[Tommy999]

From what the Tribunal tells me the diocese in which the marriage took place always has competency even though the case may be investigated in one of the other two.

The vast majority of cases that I have been involved in have been tried in the diocese of the petitioner.

Hi Bill,
I thought of a couple more follow-up questions if that is ok.
When the case is tried, who are the participants? Are there lawyers, witnesses, and others who testify like a trial in a secular courthouse or is it some other format?

What happens if the respondent refuses to participate? For example, let’s say the other spouse doesn’t want anything to do with the whole proceedings or is otherwise unwilling to cooperate with the tribunal. I wonder if that ever happens and how it is handled.

Also, if the decision of the tribunal is an annulment, does that infer or imply that any children from the union are deemed illegitimate?

Thanks in advance. Sorry for asking so many questions.

 

[DCNBILL]

Hi Bill,
I thought of a couple more follow-up questions if that is ok.
When the case is tried, who are the participants? Are there lawyers, witnesses, and others who testify like a trial in a secular courthouse or is it some other format?

The participants are the canon lawyers in the tribunal, usually one presents the case, there is the “defender of the bond” and a judge. The "evidence is usually written testimony from the petitioner, respondent and other witnesses.

What happens if the respondent refuses to participate? For example, let’s say the other spouse doesn’t want anything to do with the whole proceedings or is otherwise unwilling to cooperate with the tribunal. I wonder if that ever happens and how it is handled.

This often happens, the tribunal gives the respondent a few chances to respond and then proceeds with the case without their testimony.

Also, if the decision of the tribunal is an annulment, does that infer or imply that any children from the union are deemed illegitimate?

Thanks in advance. Sorry for asking so many questions.

No, any children who were born were born into a valid civil marriage, the declaration of nullity effects are purely spiritual in nature.

No problem on the questions, I wish more people would try to gain a better understanding of these things.

 

[Tommy999]

The participants are the canon lawyers in the tribunal, usually one presents the case, there is the “defender of the bond” and a judge. The "evidence is usually written testimony from the petitioner, respondent and other witnesses.

This often happens, the tribunal gives the respondent a few chances to respond and then proceeds with the case without their testimony.

No, any children who were born were born into a valid civil marriage, the declaration of nullity effects are purely spiritual in nature.

No problem on the questions, I wish more people would try to gain a better understanding of these things.

Thanks a lot, Bill. Good info.

What would you say is the average time from the time the petitioner submits a petition to the time is it heard and tried by the tribunal?

Does it vary from diocese to diocese, depending on case load?

Can the time be as long as a year or so to wait in some cases? As you know, sometimes cases in secular court have to wait a while due to all the other cases on the docket, the amount of judges, or other factors.

 

[1ke]

Does it vary from diocese to diocese, depending on case load?

Yes, it does vary widely and it is mostly due to resources and caseload. In my diocese, for example, the process start to finish is typically about 7 months. In other dioceses (large diocese) it is about 2 years. And you will find everything in between.

However, *individual *petitions can get hung up if witnesses are slow to respond, if psychological evaluations must be done, or other such things-- so even in a diocese with a fairly fast turn around, an individual case can take much longer.

 

[1ke]

Also, if the decision of the tribunal is an annulment, does that infer or imply that any children from the union are deemed illegitimate?

No. Per canon law:

Can. 1137 The children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate.

A *putative *marriage is one that was celebrated in good faith by at least one party but is later determined to be invalid.

 

[DCNBILL]

Yes, it does vary widely and it is mostly due to resources and caseload. In my diocese, for example, the process start to finish is typically about 7 months. In other dioceses (large diocese) it is about 2 years. And you will find everything in between.

However, *individual *petitions can get hung up if witnesses are slow to respond, if psychological evaluations must be done, or other such things-- so even in a diocese with a fairly fast turn around, an individual case can take much longer.

What he said. I have seen cases go between 8 months to 16 months.

 

[Tommy999]

Yes, it does vary widely and it is mostly due to resources and caseload. In my diocese, for example, the process start to finish is typically about 7 months. In other dioceses (large diocese) it is about 2 years. And you will find everything in between.

However, *individual *petitions can get hung up if witnesses are slow to respond, if psychological evaluations must be done, or other such things-- so even in a diocese with a fairly fast turn around, an individual case can take much longer.

Got it. Thanks, 1ke.

How much does it cost to file a case, I wonder? This is all theoretical to me as I am not Catholic plus I have a stable marriage to a wonderful lady who has the patience of Job.

However, I find this topic interesting because I had never really paid attention to it before and it kind of flew under the radar of items I knew about. I had just assumed it (annulment) was what Catholics did instead of divorce.

 

[DCNBILL]

Got it. Thanks, 1ke.

How much does it cost to file a case, I wonder? This is all theoretical to me as I am not Catholic plus I have a stable marriage to a wonderful lady who has the patience of Job.

However, I find this topic interesting because I had never really paid attention to it before and it kind of flew under the radar of items I knew about. I had just assumed it (annulment) was what Catholics did instead of divorce.

In our diocese the annual diocesan appeal takes care of the salaries of those who work in the office of the Tribunal. The diocese does ask the petitioner to defer other costs ($200.00 to the court of second instance, mailing costs, etc.) with a contribution of $400.00 but lack of ability to pay does not prevent the case from moving on, they just bill the parish.

 

[Tommy999]

In our diocese the annual diocesan appeal takes care of the salaries of those who work in the office of the Tribunal. The diocese does ask the petitioner to defer other costs ($200.00 to the court of second instance, mailing costs, etc.) with a contribution of $400.00 but lack of ability to pay does not prevent the case from moving on, they just bill the parish.

Thanks for the helpful info, Bill and 1ke. As they say in court sometimes, “No more questions”.

You’ve answered all of them that I could think of.

 

[1ke]

In our diocese the annual diocesan appeal takes care of the salaries of those who work in the office of the Tribunal. The diocese does ask the petitioner to defer other costs ($200.00 to the court of second instance, mailing costs, etc.) with a contribution of $400.00 but lack of ability to pay does not prevent the case from moving on, they just bill the parish.

Just to mention, the cost can go lower or higher, but all dioceses I’m aware of have a sliding scale fee based on ability to pay.

 

[Della]

Tommy, I had a thought about your friend’s mother and her long-suffering. Suffering is never wasted if we offer it in union with Christ’s sufferings. In our modern times especially few seem to understand this and most wish to avoid any and all suffering. But suffering comes to all of us in one form other another. This lady’s sufferings were a blessing in that she bore them well and no doubt offered them to God. It may be that she will see her husband saved because of her prayers and faithfulness. Like St. Monica who prayed for many years for her wayward son, who became St. Augustine.

No one wants to see another suffer, especially if we think it could have been avoided, but it was up to her to decide what she would bear in her marriage for she saw it as a sacrament not just a civil agreement. It appears she was determined to remain true to her vows even if her husband didn’t. His sin made her suffer, but he will suffer more if he never repents. I’m sure she realized this. That she was so kind and gracious in the midst of it all shows that she was a true saint–bearing her cross with and for Christ.

As you explore the Catholic faith, you’ll find that many of the great saints welcomed sufferings so they would have the honor to suffer with their Lord–the martyrs all saw it that way. That’s a foreign concept for many people, even some Catholics, but it is a calling from God to bear sufferings. He gives souls who suffer much special graces to endure them, and more, to take joy in their sufferings. This is the deeper things of God that St. Paul talked about, but it is not for the weak in faith nor for those who who cannot accept it. God knows what each of us can bear–he never lays on any of us what we cannot endure without his grace. And that’s the key–God’s grace, for who can understand suffering or benefit from it without it?

 

[tee_eff_em]

No. Per canon law:

Can. 1137 The children conceived or born of a valid or putative marriage are legitimate.

A *putative *marriage is one that was celebrated in good faith by at least one party but is later determined to be invalid.

Just to add a little more information, this is one of very few Canons which address the legitimacy of children. :twocents: IMHO, these Canons are present for purely psychological reasons to ease people’s fears. Because the Canonical consequences of legitmate vs illegitimate birth are precisely: zero.

tee
Still Not A Canon Lawyer