Marriage, Divorce, and Baptized Non-Catholics

[normbetland]

This is a personal question. I’m a convert to the Catholic Church, and other than my sister (who converted after I did) and I, the rest of my family consists of baptized non-Catholics.

My mother died almost two years ago, and now my father has started dating. I’ve resisted learning too much about this relationship and the woman he is dating because this is the time of year when my mom died, and I’m still working through some of the stages of grief.

So this is my question. My dad is baptized and not Catholic, and I’m going to go out on a limb and make a safe assumption that his new girlfriend is also baptized, and probably Lutheran (just a classic Minnesota stereotype that probably holds true). I know that she has been married at least once before and is now divorced. What would be the Catholic view of this situation?

Am I correct in saying that the Church teaches that if she is baptized and her husband was baptized, that even though they are not Catholic they still would have entered a Sacramental marriage? And if so, without a decree of nullity, the Catholic view would be that the marriage was and is valid until such a decree were to be obtained?

Would it be wise to advise my father against dating a woman who in the eyes of the Church and of God is still married, then, even though he is not a Catholic Christian?

Looking for clarification on any details I might be misunderstanding and any suggestions of what I should do.

 

[Horton]

This is a personal question. I’m a convert to the Catholic Church, and other than my sister (who converted after I did) and I, the rest of my family consists of baptized non-Catholics.

My mother died almost two years ago, and now my father has started dating. I’ve resisted learning too much about this relationship and the woman he is dating because this is the time of year when my mom died, and I’m still working through some of the stages of grief.

So this is my question. My dad is baptized and not Catholic, and I’m going to go out on a limb and make a safe assumption that his new girlfriend is also baptized, and probably Lutheran (just a classic Minnesota stereotype that probably holds true). I know that she has been married at least once before and is now divorced. What would be the Catholic view of this situation?

Am I correct in saying that the Church teaches that if she is baptized and her husband was baptized, that even though they are not Catholic they still would have entered a Sacramental marriage? And if so, without a decree of nullity, the Catholic view would be that the marriage was and is valid until such a decree were to be obtained?

Would it be wise to advise my father against dating a woman who in the eyes of the Church and of God is still married, then, even though he is not a Catholic Christian?

Looking for clarification on any details I might be misunderstanding and any suggestions of what I should do.

Her previous marriage would be presumed valid and until investigated by a tribunal and found invalid, she would be considered married by the Catholic Church. Her baptism or that of her husband is irrelevant unless one or the other were baptised Catholic.

However this is all moot as you state neither one is Catholic and I would presume not interested in marriage in the Catholic Church. We as Catholics believe this but we can’t hold non-Catholics to our beliefs. Hopefully 1ke will see this and give a much better answer than I on the details.

As far as talking to your father about it, unless he shows interest in converting to the Catholic Church I would leave it alone.

 

[normbetland]

So I shouldn’t say anything to my father about dating a married woman?

 

[Richard_White]

You should tell him not to date this woman, because it is adultery. However, since he is not a Catholic, he may not listen.

May God bless you and grant you strength!

 

[PaulfromIowa]

You could talk to your father about Christ’s teachings on marriage and divorce. Before you do, ask yourself: Is your fathers’ relationship with Christ such that he would care about the Gospel? Is your relationship with him close enough that he will take your advice seriously?

 

[Horton]

So I shouldn’t say anything to my father about dating a married woman?

You are the best judge of your relationship with your father. Your father is not Catholic so would not be bound by the canon of the Catholic Church. If you feel this is a conversation you can have with him and not damage your relationship then by all means talk to him.

 

[e_c]

Generally, one should tread very lightly when correcting a superior - natural, civil, ecclesiastical. It can be done, but it must be done with enormous care, because it is “out of the ordinary,” where the opposite holds true for an inferior (i.e., the bishop should discipline a rogue priest, etc.). We have to take extreme care, if we are going to do it.

Do you happen to know the details of her former marriage(s)? Is it absolutely out of the realm of possibility that her former spouse was Catholic and obtained an annulment? It’s unlikely, but it’s a possibility that diminishes obligations.

This is otherwise a standard case of fraternal correction. The requirements for a grave obligation are the following:

1. Must be a grave sin. (Probably holds true, but you aren’t totally sure.)
2. The offender must not be expected to provide adequately for himself. (Namely, confession or stopping the pattern of behavior, the first is certainly not true, the second might be.)
3. There is nobody else more fitting and more likely to undertake this task of charity. (Probably not true.)
4. The offender must be likely to follow your advice. (Probably very unlikely.)
5. There must be no special difficulty accruing to you because of your zeal. (Use your own judgment.)

Is that helpful? This is a prudential matter. You should form your own judgment based on the principles above.

And/or bring them both into the Church and get it all squared up that way!

 

[e_c]

Another note - it seems odd to think of the requirement for an annulment outside of the Church. Yes, the Church is the “supreme authority” whereby a trial of nullity can be held, but outside the Church there is no process to deal with marriages gone wrong. What if it is clear to the individual that he or she was in an invalid marriage? Can he or she be held to the standard of canon law, or can he or she simply try to determine what that first exchange of vows was and meant? It seems that in cases where the previous union was very clearly not a marriage (i.e., contra bonum prolis, forced consent, a diriment impediment, etc.) that perhaps a second union is less adultery than presumption, a presumption which is forced by the fact of not being in the Church with the benefit of Her laws. Just another thought to consider. (I welcome corrections, especially from canonists, if there are any out there.)

 

[ClearWater]

Her previous marriage would be presumed valid and until investigated by a tribunal and found invalid, she would be considered married by the Catholic Church. Her baptism or that of her husband is irrelevant unless one or the other were baptised Catholic.

However this is all moot as you state neither one is Catholic and I would presume not interested in marriage in the Catholic Church. We as Catholics believe this but we can’t hold non-Catholics to our beliefs. Hopefully 1ke will see this and give a much better answer than I on the details.

As far as talking to your father about it, unless he shows interest in converting to the Catholic Church I would leave it alone.

I agree.

 

[CB_Catholic]

As stated before, non=Catholics are not bound by Catholic marriage laws. Leave it alone.
What they believe in their hearts is different than what we believe, they have been taught differently. Their culpability may be affected by this, and only God knows the heart.

Familial relations may be affected if you say something, which may be damaged for years, if not forever. The only time the Catholic Church would have any say in this marriage is if they were to convert to Catholicism.

I am very sorry for the loss of your mother–may she rest in peace, and may the Lord heal your grief.

 

[normbetland]

I guess I’m getting confused by the differences here between canon and moral law. I was under the impression that Catholic teaching is that validly conferred marriages between baptized persons were sacramental regardless of whether or not they are Catholic. This seems to be doctrinal, not canonical. I was also under the impression that adultery was a moral, not a canonical law.

I understand what people are saying about treading lightly due to the familial relationship and the “younger” correcting a “superior”. I definitely don’t want to create a giant rift in the family. What I don’t understand is why people are saying that if my father has no interest in becoming Catholic that that is reason enough to let him engage in sin without saying something. If Catholics never admonished a sinner unless they had already decided to investigate Catholicism there wouldn’t be much of a Church. Can someone explain this to me?

My second question would be: regardless of whether I end up sharing my concerns or not, if the day were to come where he would choose to enter into a “marriage” with this woman (assuming the probability that her previous marriage is valid) what is my role as a witness to Christ and the truth of marriage? Do I go to the wedding pretending that this is ok? Do I not go to the wedding and let my reasons be made known? I have thoughts on what those answers should be when I draw the analogy between a similar situation being a gay family member “marrying” a person of the same-sex.

I realize this situation has the potential of great complexity, but I would hate to avoid witnessing to the truth out of fear or some kind of bygones-be-bygones mentality and have my father end up not making it to heaven.

 

[Horton]

I guess I’m getting confused by the differences here between canon and moral law. I was under the impression that Catholic teaching is that validly conferred marriages between baptized persons were sacramental regardless of whether or not they are Catholic. This seems to be doctrinal, not canonical. I was also under the impression that adultery was a moral, not a canonical law.

Her marriage may be valid without being sacramental. We don’t have enough information to say. Morally yes, it is a sin to have a relationship with someone other than one’s spouse. However many protestant faiths do not hold to the same moral standard that the Catholic Church does. It could be said that your father and his girlfriend are certain they are doing nothing wrong as they may believe divorce dissolves her previous marriage.

I understand what people are saying about treading lightly due to the familial relationship and the “younger” correcting a “superior”. I definitely don’t want to create a giant rift in the family. What I don’t understand is why people are saying that if my father has no interest in becoming Catholic that that is reason enough to let him engage in sin without saying something. If Catholics never admonished a sinner unless they had already decided to investigate Catholicism there wouldn’t be much of a Church. Can someone explain this to me?

My advice would be to go easy with speaking to your father. You know him and your relationship with him. If you feel you can speak to him on this issue without creating a problem in the relationship, then go ahead. Please understand he may not be receptive to your message and then you may need to back off a bit.

My second question would be: regardless of whether I end up sharing my concerns or not, if the day were to come where he would choose to enter into a “marriage” with this woman (assuming the probability that her previous marriage is valid) what is my role as a witness to Christ and the truth of marriage? Do I go to the wedding pretending that this is ok? Do I not go to the wedding and let my reasons be made known? I have thoughts on what those answers should be when I draw the analogy between a similar situation being a gay family member “marrying” a person of the same-sex.

This is where is gets a little more complicated. I don’t have a good answer for you. Hopefully other posters with more wisdom can answer this question. If all else fails speak to your priest.

I realize this situation has the potential of great complexity, but I would hate to avoid witnessing to the truth out of fear or some kind of bygones-be-bygones mentality and have my father end up not making it to heaven.

Fortunately we have a most merciful God and can’t know to any certainty who will go to heaven and who won’t.

 

[WillyAL]

Would it be wise to advise my father against dating a woman who in the eyes of the Church and of God is still married, then, even though he is not a Catholic Christian?

No, that would not be wise. I can think of no better way to cause ill will between people than to tell them that they shouldn’t marry someone because, even though it is permitted by the rules of their church, it is forbidden by the rules of yours…and yours is always right. Say this to a family member and the ill will is doubled. Say it to a parent and the ill will increases exponentially.

Please don’t do that.

 

[normbetland]

No, that would not be wise. I can think of no better way to cause ill will between people than to tell them that they shouldn’t marry someone because, even though it is permitted by the rules of their church, it is forbidden by the rules of yours…and yours is always right. Say this to a family member and the ill will is doubled. Say it to a parent and the ill will increases exponentially.

Please don’t do that.

Does the potential for ill will outweigh being silent about sin?

 

[WillyAL]

Does the potential for ill will outweigh being silent about sin?

If someone told you that a teaching of their church is correct and a conflicting teaching of the Catholic Church is wrong, would you believe them? Would you change important life decisions based on this information? I suspect not. Your father is not sinning according to the teachings of his church. You telling him that he is sinning according to your church is probably not going to inspire him to dump his girlfriend. So to answer your question, yes, the potential for ill will does outweigh being silent about (your concept of) sin.

 

[PhiloMed]

This is a personal question. I’m a convert to the Catholic Church, and other than my sister (who converted after I did) and I, the rest of my family consists of baptized non-Catholics.

My mother died almost two years ago, and now my father has started dating. I’ve resisted learning too much about this relationship and the woman he is dating because this is the time of year when my mom died, and I’m still working through some of the stages of grief.

So this is my question.** My dad is baptized and not Catholic,**

Full stop here. Nothing else to say to your father. He is not bound by Catholic Canon Law as several others have said. This is the absolute end of it unless he wishes to convert.

YOUR personal religious beliefs have no bearing on YOUR FATHER’s faith life unless he wishes to convert or for you to share this with him.

Honestly, this sounds more like it is coming from a place of grief over your mother. I am very sorry for your loss and clearly it is still very painful for you.

 

[SMHW]

So this is my question. My dad is baptized and not Catholic, and I’m going to go out on a limb and make a safe assumption that his new girlfriend is also baptized, and probably Lutheran (just a classic Minnesota stereotype that probably holds true). I know that she has been married at least once before and is now divorced. What would be the Catholic view of this situation?

You’ve gotten lots of answers and advice. The advice is mostly good. Some of the answers on the Catholic views on marriage for non-Catholic Christians are a bit off.

The Catholic Church would definitely hold that the marriage of the former spouse is valid until investigated, UNLESS she herself is Catholic and contracted the first marriage outside of the laws of the Church or obtained a ruling of nullity after the divorce.

In other words, it is likely that your father will be attempting an invalid marriage should this relationship go that direction.

That said, it is an entirely different matter as to whether or not you should get involved in your father’s decision to marry this new girl friend (should the relationship go that far.) That is a very subjective matter.

Yes, we Catholics believe that fraternal correction is important. But as some have noted, correcting a superior is a very delicate matter. My personal opinion is that you don’t need to hide the fact that this relationship makes you uneasy. If your father notices and asks why then you have the opportunity to say that Catholics don’t believe that divorce ends a marriage. However it is possible that some marriages are invalid from the beginning and Catholics think this is such an important matter that we have special tribunals to investigate the matter rather than leaving the decision to the individiual.

You can also reassure your father that you respect him for his role as your parent and his choices will not change that. (Hopefully you can say that in a way that comes across as respectful.)

Just a comment on some other posts: It is true that non-Catholics are not bound by every rule and regulation of Catholic canon. Specifically, they are not bound by rules regarding the Catholic form of marriage. But they are bound by any rules that are inherent to the validity of sacramental marriage and/or to natural marriage.

 

[WillyAL]

The Catholic Church would definitely hold that the marriage of the former spouse is valid until investigated, UNLESS she herself is Catholic and contracted the first marriage outside of the laws of the Church or obtained a ruling of nullity after the divorce.

In other words, it is likely that your father will be attempting an invalid marriage should this relationship go that direction.

Where is this woman supposed to go to have her previous marriage investigated? I don’t know of any churches other than the Catholic Church (and maybe the Orthodox Church?) that are in the annulment business. Would a Catholic tribunal be willing to investigate a marriage that involved no Catholics and where none of the parties had any interest in becoming Catholics? And even if it would, why would two non-Catholics care what a Catholic tribunal said?

Just a comment on some other posts: It is true that non-Catholics are not bound by every rule and regulation of Catholic canon. Specifically, they are not bound by rules regarding the Catholic form of marriage. But they are bound by any rules that are inherent to the validity of sacramental marriage and/or to natural marriage.

Perhaps. But they are not bound by a Catholic interpretation of those rules. It is likely that their church would find nothing wrong with this marriage and would regard it as perfectly valid. That the Catholic Church would regard such a marriage as invalid would be of no consequence to the OP’s father or his (potential) wife.

I am aware that this is a Catholic website and people come here looking for Catholic answers. No problem. But when you try to apply Catholic rules to non-Catholics, as the OP is inquiring about, it just gets ridiculous. To the OP: Don’t be that person.

 

[Padres1969]

Where is this woman supposed to go to have her previous marriage investigated? I don’t know of any churches other than the Catholic Church (and maybe the Orthodox Church?) that are in the annulment business. Would a Catholic tribunal be willing to investigate a marriage that involved no Catholics and where none of the parties had any interest in becoming Catholics? And even if it would, why would two non-Catholics care what a Catholic tribunal said?

Perhaps. But they are not bound by a Catholic interpretation of those rules. It is likely that their church would find nothing wrong with this marriage and would regard it as perfectly valid.** That the Catholic Church would regard such a marriage as invalid would be of no consequence to the OP’s father or his (potential) wife.**

I am aware that this is a Catholic website and people come here looking for Catholic answers. No problem. But when you try to apply Catholic rules to non-Catholics, as the OP is inquiring about, it just gets ridiculous. To the OP: Don’t be that person.

:yup:

As someone who is in a marriage the Catholic Church would consider invalid I can confirm this sentiment. I find it an academic curiosity how the Catholic Church defines its marriage rules, but that the RCC would view my own marriage as invalid is of no concern to me personally, spiritually or religiously.

While it may be of concern to a Catholic, or to the OP as a Catholic family member, I highly doubt that you’ll have any positive impact on your father by confronting him with the RCC’s view on the situation if it’s contrary to what his own faith professes.

 

[normbetland]

If someone told you that a teaching of their church is correct and a conflicting teaching of the Catholic Church is wrong, would you believe them? Would you change important life decisions based on this information? I suspect not. Your father is not sinning according to the teachings of his church. You telling him that he is sinning according to your church is probably not going to inspire him to dump his girlfriend. So to answer your question, yes, the potential for ill will does outweigh being silent about (your concept of) sin.

Sin is sin regardless of whether one believes it is sin or not, morality is not relative. And this just proves my point:

you believe that causing ill will is a greater wrong than letting someone live in sin. This is your conception of a sin/wrong. And yet, you are telling me that it is correct, and that my conception of a sin/wrong, is incorrect.

I’m not saying I’m upset that you have a differing opinion and are telling me that you believe I’m wrong, it’s just interesting that in order to do so, you have to contradict the very thing you are telling me.