Marriage Encounter- bad experience?

[sailor28]

I found the quote from catholicandcrunchy.com/20 interesting, so I read the entire article and comments. I’m glad the couple had a good time and shared it. That’s what I wrote on the original post. “I want to hear from people who love Marriage Encounter. I want to hear from people who don’t love Marriage Encounter. I want those ideas out there.”

Having said that, one commenter on the catholicandcrunchy.com/20 blog wrote:
“I do want to make sure that people know the $50 is the application fee that and is used to secure the facility, materials etc. there is a sharing in the dream donation talk at the end of the weekend because without the donations and Financial support of others, the movement would not exist and also the application fee may vary in the different areas.
no one is ever turned away from the weekend for the inability to pay.”

That’s pretty much what I was thinking- the $50 is the application fee, not the actual donation made after the “Sermon on the Amount,” also known as the “Dream Donation.”

Back before my wife and I suffered our Marriage Encounter “weekend,”
the folks who were recruiting us sent us a $10 check made out to Marriage Encounter, to cover our registration fee. Little did we know that WWME encouraged couples to send the $10 check to their victims, to give the targets that final push onto the “weekend.”
I wonder if WWME gets folks to front $50 for the non-refundable registration fee today? Inflation raised ten mid-1970s dollars to $41.67 today. Interesting. Looks like the $50 non-refundable registration fee is almost 20% above inflation. Oh, well.

Agustin,

In the area I live in it is standard to ask for a $25 non refundable deposit per person for a retreat for registration and to secure the facility. That is not unusual. This is not some kind of scam. A review of retreats in my area has the cost at $125 to $275 per PERSON. That is $250-$550 per couple. Marriage Encounter can choose to ask everyone to pay the full amount or they can continue to do what they do. Ask for a donation at the end and welcome all who can come regardless of their ability to pay. For a ministry to do this and welcome all couples, even someone who can only pay $50 is remarkable.

Is it your belief that marriage encounter should charge all couples the full amount it costs for lodging, food and materials and not ask for a donation at the end of the retreat? Should couple who are lower income be prevented from coming? If they don’t charge couples or ask for a donation how do they pay for the retreat?

Praying for you that this bitterness that remains can be resolved for you. Continuing to use the words “victims” to describe couples who go on the retreat is inflammatory and lacks charity.

 

[sailor28]

Having said that, one commenter on the catholicandcrunchy.com/20 blog wrote:
“I do want to make sure that people know the $50 is the application fee that and is used to secure the facility, materials etc. there is a sharing in the dream donation talk at the end of the weekend because without the donations and Financial support of others, the movement would not exist and also the application fee may vary in the different areas.
no one is ever turned away from the weekend for the inability to pay.”

I wanted to ad the remainder of the comment here:

My husband and I have been a part of worldwide marriage encounter for over 9 years now. Our weekend changed our life and family forever! We have been serving in whatever way we can to help support the movement, the couples and the community. We have seen so many marriages transformed and families brought back together because of this amazing ministry.

There are different variations of the weekend some of them being spread over multiple weeks and some of them being held at a church or facility that you go home at night its called a non-residential weekend for those who are unable to find child care.

We have met so many amazing families through this movement and made so many close friends that it is as if we have family all across the world even in Africa there is a convention in PasadinaTexas July 25-27 2014. if you have had the privilege to go on a marriage Encounter weekend the convention is amazing you can view for more information or to register online at www.wwme2014.org

and another comment:

We made our weekend 25 years ago and it was the best thing we ever did. We are now Local Area Coordinators for Long Island.We are so glad for you. Enjoy!

and another one:

We did ours 24 years ago and it’s still the best thing we ever did for our marriage. If you love your husband and value your marriage, you don’t want to make excuses…you want to do whatever it takes to find a way to attend.

 

[Eliza10]

Eliza10,

Of course, nothing should be secret. I don’t think anyone was suggesting that. However, posting something online here was not going to change anything that happened to these couples. It was important to speak with someone either in the group or who can speak to the group for you.

Well, I guess I meant, not just that it should not be secret, but that it should be *public. *Others who are considering Marraige Encounter should be able to read not only positive experiences but negative ones. Like what is happening in this thread. Though, I’m not sure you agree. You wrote:

…
Praying for you that this bitterness that remains can be resolved for you. Continuing to use the words “victims” to describe couples who go on the retreat is inflammatory and lacks charity.

I don’t see bitterness, sailor28. In my life experience, a common thread in cult groups is that everyone is supposed to speak only positively about the group, and anyone who disassociates from the group and goes and tells the honest truth about their negative experience and their doubts about doctrines is accused of being “bitter”. The implication is clear: those people who speak negatively about their group experience are just all bound up in their own negative feelings, and spewing their own internal garbage, and what they have to say is not worthwhile and should not be listened to.

I see this in numerous groups held together by a doctrine and proscribed behavioral norms. Even big groups, like Mormons. Because that large cult-like religion tells people how they should think and what they should think, and particularly that those who leave their group/religion are not worth listening to - they are just “bitter”, so, not to be trusted! Not only bitter, but immorally uncharitable, they are in fact *persecuting *Mormons by saying these things! Yes. That’s why I see red flags when I see you label Agustin as being “bitter” when there is no evidence that he is “bitter”. Why would you say that? He had a negative experience, and is being honest, with a bit of humor, about his experience. That’s not bitter.

Also he was* not *inflammatory, or uncharitable. He was truthful. He was a victim - didn’t you read his experience?? I see that his experience was not your experience, but can you not see that his experience was different from yours?? To read his experience and Gaelwynn’s its clear that they were victimized. If some can sit through those pitches and not feel a victim, then fine for them. But others feel victimized. I would have felt so!

In the very same way, some people have their phone numbers placed on “Do Not Call” lists because solicitors calling their home or cell phone makes them feel victimized. Others get the same calls, and its fine for them. They like talking to solicitors and listening to their deals, perhaps, so, they are not victims. Just because some people don’t mind solicitors’ calls does not mean that those who choose to be placed on a “Do Not Call” list are not genuinely victimized by solicitors’ pitches.

I am glad Agustin shared! As I wrote, it saved me from making a dangerous recommendation. Others will read this thread and be more moved by the positive experiences. One must decide for oneself after hearing the viewpoints. Its like book reviews. You cannot find any book with all positive reviews. You have to read both and try to discern where the reviewers are coming from. Or like product reviews. A careful consumer wants to make an informed choice, and know both the positive and the negative and come up with their own opinion. And when it comes to a marraige retreat, the stakes are high - and more so for some couples than others. They need uncensored info to make an informed decision about whether a Marriage Encounter is a good choice/risk for them.

 

[Gaelwynn]

Here is an interesting study published in the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy in 1986. It is on the impact of Marriage Encounter Weekends on couples.

www2.arnes.si/~rcvete/drugi%20letnik/analiza%20vsebine/861049.pdf

It is the last of four articles on the potential dangers of a Marriage Encounter weekend. Out of a group of 129 couples they sample the 50 indicating the most positive or most negative response following an ME weekend. Years later, 7 couples reported a very positive impact, 17 a somewhat positive impact, 17 a neutral impact and 9 a negative impact from their ME weekend. The article concludes with a recommendation for better screening for participants to make sure they are likely to be couples that will benefit. I think the article may be a little biased, since ME could be taking away from therapists. The survey options were 1) Very Positive, 2) Somewhat Positive, 3) Neutral and 4) Negative. And then “Very Positive” was compared to “Negative”. Why not break the Negative into “Somewhat Negative” and “Very Negative” and give a full comparison. Also they only interviewed the extreme cases.

Statistically this is what we have:
17.2% indicated it was benefited
12.2% indicated it was a neutral experience
7.2% left before the weekend was over
56.8% stayed but were not in the middle in their initial impression of ME
6.5% indicated it was a negative experience.
(Does not add to 100% due to rounding error).

But that is not why I posted.

 

[Gaelwynn]

I do hope the Office of Family life brings some resolution for the couple above who is addressing this with them, Please keep us updated on the results of your meeting. I do hope you get money refunded since you felt coerced. I am assuming that is one thing you are looking for.

For those upset about the way the financial talk is presented, do you think it would be a better idea to have a set price for everyone and no matter what that is what you pay? The reason they ask for a donation at the end is because they do not turn anyone away from the weekend. Some couples pay less than what the weekend cost and some pay more. Again, I wanted to add that we felt no pressure to give more than we could on our retreat. Perhaps it would be wise for ME to rethink their practice on this if enough people are upset about it. I know we had an anonymous survey sent to us after our retreat. Surely, they have gotten feedback on this.

No, we are not looking for a refund. Although the experience was “average” for us as far as retreats go, we would have made a contribution at the end, but refused. People are encouraged to put off buying a house to make the contribution, encouraged to used past dated checks or post-dated credit card charges, bombarded with more information than the typical person can process which changes the decision making process from a rational one to an emotional one, and told it was both paying it forward and covering the expense of the weekend (confusing). Contributions associated with the weekend are only tax deductible in excess of the value of goods and services provided, but contributions not associated with the weekend are fully tax deductible.

I do not think people should be required to pay a flat fee for the weekend, but at least given an idea of what will be expected of them. Had we been told a the time of registration, “In addition to the registration fee, you will be asked to contribution about $850 at the end of the retreat, but we do not turn anyone away based on their ability to pay,” we would not have gone. Just presenting as “ability” to pay is a shame tactic, we find offensive.

We want the method changed and perhaps scripted and approved like the rest of the weekend. It is dangerous to let people free form when it comes to asking for contributions. A simple, this is how much the weekend cost and that works out to such and such amount per couple, please give what you can realizing not everyone can pay for the full weekend would have got a MUCH better response from us. At another retreat we gave enough to sponsor over 10 other people, but high pressure sales techniques are offensive and I believe inappropriate in this setting.

 

[OraLabora]

At the time our experience itself wasn’t that bad (this was in the mid-'90s). In hindsight, I’ve become very wary of “one size fits all” approaches to common issues. While I agree dialogue is good, the methods we go about it needs to consider different personalities, abilities to open up, listening skills, etc. No two snowflakes are alike and no two couples either.

We eventually found, within a couple of months, that the daily letter-writing fell flat and was quickly forgotten. It was a chore. Turn dialogue into a chore, and it is no longer dialogue. It falls into a forced talking past each other and an unhealthy way to vent. It’s easy to turn concrete issues into “feelings” and then hide behind those feelings like a fortress rather than genuinely listening to your spouse.

Honestly, I think just making an effort to talk to each other at dinner, about one’s day, one’s preoccupations, while genuinely listening, achieves just as much. And a bit of advice to us husbands, when your wife talks to you about her day, and her problems of that day, she’s not asking for advice. She’s asking for a sympathetic ear. Took me forever to figure that one out!!! If she needs advice she will specifically ask for it. Otherwise, listen and offer her your empathy.

That and… praying together. Being on the same wavelength spiritually is a big help. Even though my wife is Anglican and we pray differently, we know we are praying for each other and on the main Christian spiritual lines, we are in synch; we avoid discussions of any doctrinal differences and focus on Christ, whom we both love, and doing His will as we understand it.

If anybody asked me today about ME, I’d say “don’t waste your time or your money”. Just take a getaway together away from the kids, or go on a genuine spiritual retreat together.

 

[Agustin_Hippo]

Agustin,

In the area I live in it is standard to ask for a $25 non refundable deposit per person for a retreat for registration and to secure the facility. That is not unusual. This is not some kind of scam. A review of retreats in my area has the cost at $125 to $275 per PERSON. That is $250-$550 per couple. Marriage Encounter can choose to ask everyone to pay the full amount or they can continue to do what they do. Ask for a donation at the end and welcome all who can come regardless of their ability to pay. For a ministry to do this and welcome all couples, even someone who can only pay $50 is remarkable.

In most of the WWME areas I’ve read about, a fifty dollar registration fee is fairly common. I don’t think World Wide Marriage Encounter is a scam; I think it’s a movement within the Catholic Church that has never lived up to the goals of its originator, the late Father Chuck Gallagher, S.J.
My wife and I have been on many retreats, and we have always paid the fee up front, without complaint, I may add.
I object to Marriage Encounter rattling the tin cup immediately after the “Marriage As a Sacrament” talk, which you, as a Marriage Encounter attendee, should remember as the emotional zenith of the “weekend.”
On our disastrous “weekend,” I well remember the presenting team remarking, as we returned to our metal folding chairs after the 90/90, “I hope nobody was wearing any cheap mascara!” THEN we had the “Sermon on the Amount,” now known as the “Dream Donation.”
During our “weekend,” I made copious notations in my notebook. This recollection is from the written record. The quotes are from contemporaneous notes. The presenting team told us that the word of Marriage Encounter had to be spread throughout the world, and all this took money. The “mission territory” assigned to our region was elsewhere in the country. Our region was sending teams there to give “weekends.” Marriage Encounter’s missionary efforts gave me another reason not to give anything. “Teams should be sent everywhere. There should be no apologies, give ‘til it hurts.” We were asked to double the amount it cost Marriage Encounter for us to be there, which was seventy five dollars. So they were asking for a hundred fifty dollars per couple. One hundred fifty dollars was a lot of money back then. That’s $625 today.

Now at this moment, when victim couples have just finished writing and dialoguing on the greatest love letters of their lives, Marriage Encounter hits them with the bill. Marriage Encounter asks the couples to pay the cost of their own room and board for the “weekend,” and also to make a sizeable donation. Teams suggest, “Maybe don’t take a vacation this year, or just take day trips. Put off that new car until next year, or forego some luxury item.” The team said the “weekend” cost Marriage Encounter seventy five dollars a couple, but why not double it, to keep Marriage Encounter growing? My wife was really annoyed with the pitch.
The team told us to give, not from our excess, but from our substance. They suggested we take funds we had set aside for some other project and give them to Marriage Encounter. We had, after all, received a lasting memory. The team handed out envelopes, which we were to return after we, in the privacy of our own rooms, discussed the amount. They told each of us to write a figure in our notebooks, and then, hopefully, give the higher figure. In fact, they suggested we add the two figures together. They told us that post-dated checks were okay, if we wanted to stretch our gift over several months. And if anyone had forgotten their checkbook, they had blank checks that could be filled out. We were ready to go back to our rooms when the team told us that they must account for each envelope, so they’d know that no money was lost.

Now maybe I’m just guessing here, and I am fallible, but it seems to me that the “Sermon on the Amount,” as we experienced it, is a high pressure sales pitch.

 

[Agustin_Hippo]

Agustin,

Is it your belief that marriage encounter should charge all couples the full amount it costs for lodging, food and materials and not ask for a donation at the end of the retreat? Should couple who are lower income be prevented from coming? If they don’t charge couples or ask for a donation how do they pay for the retreat?

Marriage Encounter may support itself any way it sees fit. I certainly do not advocate excluding anyone who wishes to attend.
Once we were registered for our “weekend,” we received calls from strangers, who told us how excited they were that we soon would be making a “weekend.” I said to one anonymous caller, “I’m glad you called; how much does this cost?” Reply: “Well, um, ah, it’s a donation at the end of the weekend.” There’s not a lot of response in that answer. So I persisted, “Well, how much should I bring? Should I bring five dollars? Should I bring ten dollars? Should I bring fifteen dollars?” I would have kept going, except I wore the caller out, and learned the “weekend” was seventy five dollars.
Marriage Encounter can avoid the ill-will that the “Sermon on the Amount-Dream Donation” talk engenders by stating the fee up front, and modifying their “No one is ever turned away…” statement by adding that scholarships or burses are available upon request.
Marriage Encounter could advise recruits that, at the end of the weekend, the team will make a plea for donations. But that would break Marriage Encounter’s tradition of secrecy.

 

[Agustin_Hippo]

Agustin,
Praying for you that this bitterness that remains can be resolved for you. Continuing to use the words “victims” to describe couples who go on the retreat is inflammatory and lacks charity.

Sailor28:
Thank you for your prayers. I can use all he prayers I can get.

Victims? My wife and I were a church-going couple, minding our own business, raising our children, when former friends latched onto us about Marriage Encounter, and would absolutely not take “No” for an answer.
I asked “What’s Marriage Encounter all about?” They answered, “We don’t want to spoil it for you. Trust us.”
When I told them that we have a good marriage, they said “Marriage Encounter is for good marriages; it makes good marriages great, and great marriages out of this world!” That didn’t convince me, and I said I didn’t think that we needed it. The response, “It’s not something you need, it’s a gift. Think of life as a meal, and you’re not getting dessert. You don’t need Marriage Encounter, you deserve it.” I still didn’t think this was a responsive answer. Beyond saying Marriage Encounter was about a technique of communication calls “dialogue,” they told us nothing.
They offered to watch our kids and dog for the weekend. They paid our ten dollar registration fee. They invited us to their home for supper, then escorted us to an “Information Night,” where non-information was the name of the game.
We were cajoled and pushed onto a Marriage Encounter “weekend” we didn’t want to go to.
We still remember the hard seats, smoky air, long hours, and inept presenters.

Victim: a person who is deceived or cheated, as by his or her own emotions or ignorance, by the dishonesty of others, or by some impersonal agency. (dictionary.reference.com)Lying by omission: Telling a story or giving a description and omitting important details.
Withholding: Failing to reveal something important. The difference between lying by omission and withholding is that by withholding you don’t bring up the subject and omit something; you simply don’t bring it up at all. (Source: Honesty Experiment- Types of dishonesty.)
You’re right; we’re not victims. We’re advocates for openness and information. But we were victims once.

 

[DiZent]

Retrouvaille (the joy of finding someone gain after a long separation) and Engaged Encounter are both offshoots of Marriage Encounter. Retrouvaille can help troubled marriages; Engaged Encounter can help prevent unhappy marriages. The EE weekend strives to have engaged couples discuss some matters they may have been avoiding; that discussion can lead to a decision not to enter into marriage with the fiancé(e). Engaged Encounter presenters consider a weekend successful if a couple decides not to marry.

I guess my husband (of 28 years) & I are Engaged Encounter failures. We enjoyed EE. It was held at Trinity Prep in Elkridge, MD - dormitory style housing. The presenters were very good. While I am pretty sure they had specific topics/scripts, the stories were their own. We paid a registration fee (not cheap), and they did pass an envelope at the end, but no hard sell with EE. I have seen ads in neighboring parish bulletins for WWME and have considered asking my husband to attend. We have some issues, but after reading the negatives, it may not be the right fit for us. I had not heard of Living in Love.

My parish holds C.H.E.R.I.S.H. (Catholic Hearts Espoused In Sacramental Hope) - mini-retreats - which is a dinner & speaker, including some questions/topics for discussion with your spouse. They do ask for a donation at the end, but no suggested amount & no high pressure - and they have some speaker CDs for sale. Hubby bailed on me for the first CHERISH mini-retreat, but he went for the 2nd one. I really enjoyed it. He didn’t dislike it, but said it was not his thing. The parish also hosts 6 Dates for Catholic Couples (now with babysitting) - we have not attended any of these.

 

[Eliza10]

Agustin, your description of W.W.M.E. is reminding me of a retreat I had been told in the past that I “absolutely have to go on” because it is “fantastic” but they cannot tell us what happens at it. Its Cursillo. I suppose after your M.E. experience you became wary of anyone telling you that you have to do this fantastic thing they cannot explain, so you never went on one. SO I wondered aobut it. Its definitely an avoid for me. Here is a website I found for that (I also saw this thread, here). That first website has an interesting story of one guy’s experience who did not finish the weequestioningcursillo.com/11.htmlkend: