Marriage has ruined my prayer

[AdamP88]

I did, but that post was in March (or so) and our relationship and my view towards it has evolved multiple times since, so please do not draw conclusions from the previous thread as they will very likely be wrong. I did not marry her out of compassion for her, really.

Really, in less than six months you’ve gone from “I should really break up with her, she’s a good candidate but not a great one” to loving her without reserve?

I really doubt it. Of course I’m drawing conclusions from your earlier posts. That is the common sense thing to do. You are still demonstrating a similar attitude to this woman and seem to be delaying consummation due to some idea that it would leave you open to annulment.

 

[E_7]

Please explain.

I am aleady suffering for her to some extent, and I do it for her and for our union (difficult family relations). Would you suffer for a thing?

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In my opinion, you aren’t the victim here and I don’t see your sufferings based on the info on this thread. I think, and I could be wrong, you are being scrupulous and superstitious. I urge you to make an appointment with several priests and tell them your story and listen to their advice. Not one priest, several. And you will open your eyes. Maybe it was a mistake, maybe it wasn’t. Read about scrupulousity.

 

[E_7]

Simply because not-fulfilled (not-consummated) marriage can still get cancelled by the pope. Which is not my intention, but getting gradually into sex is a way to get a feel of it. Another reason is my wife who needs some time to get through this barrier, too. She is a virgin so that is a big event for her.

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I feel so sorry for your wife, it makes my eyes water. I was a virgin too on my wedding night. If my husband would have treated me like you are treating your wife, I would have thought that he doesn’t have the hots for me nor finds me sexually attractive. I mean, aren’t you newlyweds, aren’t you hot for each other? Virgin or not, why would she need time?

 

[EasterJoy]

Virgin or not, why would she need time?

Everyone is different. They may even have been attracted to each other or felt comfortable marrying each other because their views on human sexuality were very similar and they both felt understood. Still, you are right that this is a very unusual circumstance, something to seek the guidance of a priest about.

That is another thing: their priest, whether it is their pastor or another priest who officiated at their marriage, is going to explain that the marital debt is a real debt and the marital act is the consummating act of the Sacrament of Marriage. This is not an indulgence allowed to the weak. This is essential to the very nature of marriage.

They should be willing to submit to the advice of the priest as they would if they were in monasteries and subject to a religious superior or a novice master. They should not say, “oh, he doesn’t understand us, he doesn’t appreciate the relationship with God that I have or we have, we are a special case.” No, you may be a special case in the particular problem you are having, but the nature of marriage is not different for you. We have superiors over us for a reason, to keep us from fashioning messages from God that are contrary to objective truths the superiors are bound to guide us towards.

 

[STF]

The marriage is now fulfilled (consummated) so there is no way back and I am now living this vocation 100%. Thank you for your support.

I think the root cause of my confusion was Wojtyla/JPII’s theology of marriage, which is depressing because it implies that you have to choose between God and a woman (if you are male). Fortunately, this is nonsense.

I wonder if you are aware of any alternative (catholic) theologies of marriage?.. What was there before Wojtyla? A foundation for some alternative you can find above in my posts.

 

[AdamP88]

The marriage is now fulfilled (consummated) so there is no way back and I am now living this vocation 100%. Thank you for your support.

I think the root cause of my confusion was Wojtyla/JPII’s theology of marriage, which is depressing because** it implies that you have to choose between God and a woman **(if you are male). Fortunately, this is nonsense.

I wonder if you are aware of any alternative (catholic) theologies of marriage?.. What was there before Wojtyla? A foundation for some alternative you can find above in my posts.

Where does it say that?

Marriage is a God given vocation. You don’t have to choose between God and a woman. You only choose different ways of serving God.

 

[Rau]

I think the root cause of my confusion was Wojtyla/JPII’s theology of marriage, which is depressing because it implies that you have to choose between God and a woman (if you are male). Fortunately, this is nonsense.

Perhaps your understanding was imperfect?

 

[Rau]

STF

You said in post #1: "Yes I was hugging her and this alone is so devastating. "

Can you explain what this means?

Do you still find hugging her devastating?

 

[pianistclare]

OP. please see a learned priest about your issues.
You are reading things into Theology of the Body that are simply not there.
You might consider real life advice instead of speaking online to many strangers about the very private matters in your marriage. You both need counseling. I pray you get some.
The fact that you feel trapped is disturbing, and so unfair to your spouse.
You truly misunderstand what marriage is about, and what your vocation is.
Get some help.

 

[agapewolf]

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I think the root cause of my confusion was Wojtyla/JPII’s theology of marriage, which is depressing because it implies that you have to choose between God and a woman (if you are male). Fortunately, this is nonsense.

Yes, it is nonsense, and this isn’t what TOB says. TOB is amazing and beautiful and can help you live your marriage more fully.

 

[E_7]

The marriage is now fulfilled (consummated) so there is no way back and I am now living this vocation 100%. Thank you for your support.

I think the root cause of my confusion was Wojtyla/JPII’s theology of marriage, which is depressing because it implies that you have to choose between God and a woman (if you are male). Fortunately, this is nonsense.

I wonder if you are aware of any alternative (catholic) theologies of marriage?.. What was there before Wojtyla? A foundation for some alternative you can find above in my posts.

Yay! :extrahappy: congratulations!

And in the TOB Explained by Christopher West, page 447, first paragraph says:
Pope tells us that marriage, including the sexual of property to spouses, is not “of the world” but “of the Father”. Deep in the human heart a battle rages for dominance between the two- between that which is of the Father and that which is of the world. A battle rages between love and lust, between hope and despondency, between life and all that opposes life.

**Another good read is Three to Get Married by Fulton Sheen. Page 47-49:
**
The secret of happiness is for each man to live as close to God as he can, and he will thereby live closer to his neighbor. This is a solution to the riddle of Love. In Him self-love becomes perfected; in him also we love our neighbor as ourselves and for the same reason. Therefore, I hate anyone, I hate someone God made; if I love myself to the exclusion of God, I find that I hate myself for not being all I ought to be.

Love at first seems a contradiction: How can one love self without being selfish? How can one love others without losing self? The answer is: By loving both self and neighbor in God. iIt is His Lo0ve that makes us love both self and never rightly. God has first loved us while as yet we were sinners. Love of self avoids egotism by love of self-perfection, which is achieved by loving God. Love of others avoids totalitarianism, or the losing of self by absorption in the mass , through the loving of others in the spiritual brotherhood of “Our Father.”

The poor frustrated souls who are locked up inside their own minds keep their little egotistic heads too busy and their selfish hands and feet too idle. If they would begin loving their neighbor for God’s sake, they would soon find themselves loving their own moral perfection, which consists not in seeing their self-will but in living according to God’s will. This double law of love of self and neighbor in God is the secret of life, for our Savior, after given the law of love of God and neighbor, said: “Do this, and thou shalt find life”( Luke 10:28)
**
God never intended that the I and the Thou should be separated. God is no obstacle to the full enjoyment of self, nor is He a competitor to the love of neighbor. But when love becomes triune, God is installed in the center of the I and then Thou, thus preventing the I from being an egotist and the Thou from becoming a tool or instrument of pleasure. Such love is God in pilgrimage. But if we would seek the reason why it takes three to make love, we must look into the hearts of God Himself.

The love of husband and wife is perfected as it becomes triune; now there is the lover, the beloved, and love- the love of being something distinct from both and yet in both.**

Phew…that took a while to type.

 

[Arizona_Fat_Gir]

While it sounds kind of unreal and wild to feel that God is your only love, it happens. Sometimes an individual loves God, but doesn’t think they want a regular human love because he or she could not compare in any way to the intense love they feel toward God.

It happens sometimes, maybe in the early stages of the spiritual life. Some people decide then not to marry but take a vow of chastity in order to join a religious order.

That is OK. But, it could be that one feels strongly about having an exclusive relationship with God because the individual doesn’t have a significant other. They haven’t met anyone who truly interests them. It could be that this happens more often than anyone would care to admit because it sounds strange. They feel that getting married is somehow disloyal to God because they felt they had a close relationship to Him.

So since you are already married and want to stay that way, it may be necessary to try to build a close relationship with your wife. Otherwise, she may up and get a writ of annulment - just saying.

 

[Monica4316]

I think that celibacy can in fact bring one closer to God, because it is a type of exclusive love for Him. However, now that you are married, this is your state in life and you need to be faithful to it. You only need to choose God over a spouse if you’re called to consecrated life. If you’re called to marriage, you are called to help your spouse become a saint, and fulfill your duties, and love God within your marriage. The marriage is actually what would help you to become a saint, and it’s not just a life for your own pleasure, it’s actually a cross to carry to learn to love God you now need to put your wife first above yourself, though of course not over God. As for prayer, try to give it time and be generous with God by submitting yourself to His Will. This is what holiness is… nothing but His Will. Try to pray in that way and it might bring you closer to Him =) God bless you

 

[Monica4316]

While it sounds kind of unreal and wild to feel that God is your only love, it happens. Sometimes an individual loves God, but doesn’t think they want a regular human love because he or she could not compare in any way to the intense love they feel toward God.

It happens sometimes, maybe in the early stages of the spiritual life. Some people decide then not to marry but take a vow of chastity in order to join a religious order.

That is OK. But, it could be that one feels strongly about having an exclusive relationship with God because the individual doesn’t have a significant other. They haven’t met anyone who truly interests them. It could be that this happens more often than anyone would care to admit because it sounds strange. They feel that getting married is somehow disloyal to God because they felt they had a close relationship to Him.

So since you are already married and want to stay that way, it may be necessary to try to build a close relationship with your wife. Otherwise, she may up and get a writ of annulment - just saying.

hmm… I’m one of those people who has chosen a celibate life wanting an exclusive sort of relationship with God. I don’t think though it’s because I haven’t met anyone. Because a person who feels this way, doesn’t want to be with anyone besides God – He’s not like a second option or a consolation prize. This can be a potential vocation. Of course, there are times when a person discerns consecrated life and then realizes they’re actually called to marriage. But what I’m trying to say is that it’s not like human love is superior to divine love, and a person only wants to be alone with God because they don’t know human love.

 

[STF]

Where does it say that?

Marriage is a God given vocation. You don’t have to choose between God and a woman. You only choose different ways of serving God.

This is my understanding, too.

But in his book, “Love and responsibility”, Wojtyla puts it in a different way. I only have the (original) Polish text here, but I will try to translate this for you. It is in the chapter “miłość oblubieńcza” (“betrothed love”).

The concept of betrothed love is connected with giving of the person to another selected individual person. And that’s why we’re talking about betrothed love, in some cases, when it comes to determining the relationship between man and God, as will be discussed separately in Chapter IV. There are also the deepest basis to talk about betrothed love in connection with marriage. …] The sex moment plays in shaping the betrothed love a special role. Sexual intercourse makes it tighten itself to one pair of people, but at the same time gain specific intensity.

This means you cannot live betrothed love with God if you are in marriage. This is clearly contrary to Luke 20:38, 1 Cor 6:19-20, 1 Cor 7:29 and a load of other Bible verses.

 

[STF]

tend to your duties first.

Thanks EasterJoy, you’re a genius. I am not even talking about my marriage here — this is a general advice which is a certain path to heaven. It is so contrary to “follow your heart” or similar.

 

[Rau]

…This means you cannot live betrothed love with God if you are in marriage. This is clearly contrary to Luke 20:38, 1 Cor 6:19-20, 1 Cor 7:29 and a load of other Bible verses.

I see no conflict between the quote from the book and those bible verses.