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Petergee
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JP2 does not state anywhere in this document that “marriage is not inferior to celibacy”, as Mannyfit claimed JP2 affirmed.
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Atemi
Guest
So that would mean that what you said earlier is not entirely accurate. Instead of saying:
“But celibacy for the sake of the kingdom of God is a greater good than marriage”
…it would be most accurate to say:
“But celibacy for the sake of the kingdom of God is a greater good than marriage for some people”
Wouldn’t you agree?
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Petergee
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No, I wouldn’t. Celibacy for the Kingdom is a greater good than marriage, full stop. The fact that only some people are able to accept celibacy is a different point.
Caring for people with cancer is good.
Discovering a cure for cancer would be a greater good. But very few people would be able to do it. And it is wrong to view these two goods as being in opposition to each other.
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Church_Militant
Guest
I would say that celibacy for the Kingdom of God is indeed better overall, based upon the New Testament.
Matthew 19:10-12
"10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it. "
1st Corinthians 7:6-9
“6 But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. 8 But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. 9 But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt.”
Now, Our Lord certainly laid out His thinking on celibacy in that first passage, but at the same time (as Atemi sort of pointed out
) not everyone can take that and those who can should.
Still I don’t think there’s any shame at all in knowing your vocation from God. I know I’m meant to be married…for a whole host of reasons. I believe that those who are called to the priesthood also know and are given the graces of their calling. I believe that all vocations get that.
That said…I also think that there are quite plenty enough married clergy around courtesy of the gajillion or so n-C communities, and that our church and our priests really are doing it right.
Marriage inferior to celibacy… I don’t think that’s the right way to phrase the issue at all. It really is comparing completely different things.
Matthew 19:10-12
"10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it. "
1st Corinthians 7:6-9
“6 But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. 8 But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. 9 But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt.”
Now, Our Lord certainly laid out His thinking on celibacy in that first passage, but at the same time (as Atemi sort of pointed out
) not everyone can take that and those who can should.Still I don’t think there’s any shame at all in knowing your vocation from God. I know I’m meant to be married…for a whole host of reasons. I believe that those who are called to the priesthood also know and are given the graces of their calling. I believe that all vocations get that.
That said…I also think that there are quite plenty enough married clergy around courtesy of the gajillion or so n-C communities, and that our church and our priests really are doing it right.
Marriage inferior to celibacy… I don’t think that’s the right way to phrase the issue at all. It really is comparing completely different things.
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Atemi
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Hmm.
Can you explain why God would not bless Adam and Eve with the greater good and instituted marriage right on the spot for them?
If the greater good is the end of the human race, why would that not be more of a theme in God’s Word?
It seems you are implying that all those who are not able to accept celibacy have made a decision of lesser value to God.
As to accepting celibacy, Christ qualified that beforehand:
“Not all men can receive this precept, but only those to whom it is given” (Mt 19:11)
Again, it seems you are claiming that all “have been given,” not some…all are called to celibacy for the Kingdom.
If this is true, who taught you this?
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Atemi
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For all God’s people, or for some?
Why would God call anyone to a vocatiuon that is a lesser good and less than the best for them?
But that is exactly how you phrased it above.
You said that celibacy is better.
That denotes that all other options are inferior, by definition.
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Church_Militant
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Then take it that way.
If Christ says it’s better to be celibate, and He did…who are we to argue? I have no problem with it and I am not diminished in that I am where God has equipped me to be.
If Christ says it’s better to be celibate, and He did…who are we to argue? I have no problem with it and I am not diminished in that I am where God has equipped me to be.
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Petergee
Guest
That’s like saying “Christ’s death and resurrection was the greatest thing that ever happened to the human race, so why didn’t God let it happen “right on the spot” with Adam and Eve?” Marriage is naturally good, and Christ raised it to the status of a Sacrament. I guess if the Fall had never occurred, celibacy would never have been necessary.
You keep implying I have said EVERYONE should be celibate, when I have explicitly stated the opposite in every post. Don’t worry I’m sure there’s no chance that the human race will become extinct because of people choosing celibacy for the sake of God’s Kingdom. In fact history has repeatedly shown that where there are many choosing celibacy for the Kingdom, there is a high fertility rate.
No I’m not. Only God can see into anyone’s soul and judge the value of each of the decisions each person makes. God knows each of us intimately and does not ask anyone to bear a burden which He knows he/she can’t carry. My point, and that which the Church has constantly taught, is that celibacy for the Kingdom is objectively a greater good than marriage.
Again you accuse me claiming something which I have explicitly and repeatedly rejected. Please address what I said, not a straw-man argument which I did NOT say.
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Atemi
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I am just trying to take it as you stated it.
Can you please quote where Christ said it is better to be celibate.
I can’t find that anywhere.
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Atemi
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Wait a second. I think there are some mixed signals here.
You clearly said earlier:
“celibacy for the sake of the kingdom of God is a greater good than marriage”
I then asked: “For who?”
You replied who your statement applies to:
“those who are able to receive it.”
By definition, that is only some people. So I then replied:
"it would be most accurate to say:
'But celibacy for the sake of the kingdom of God is a greater good than marriage for some people’"
You then corrected me:
“No, I wouldn’t. Celibacy for the Kingdom is a greater good than marriage, full stop.”
How can celibacy for the Kingdom not be the greater good for some people (you said no) and not the greater good for all people at the same time?
If the objective greater good for humanity is total celibacy (not some as you confirmed), then if we all lived up to the greatest good we would cease to exist.
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Petergee
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When I say “full stop”, I do NOT mean “now add the words “for all people””. Your silly word games are wasting everybody’s time. If you disagree with me, fine, then use real arguments to support your thesis. Don’t put words into my mouth and then complain because the words you accused me of saying “send mixed signals” .
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Petergee
Guest
Matthew 19:12 “Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.” (NAB).
See also Jeremiah 16:1-2, Exodus 9:15, 20:15, Deuteronomy 5:28, 1 Samuel 21:4, 1 Corinthians 7:8, 32-38.
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jman507
Guest
What does it matter? In ones life discerning a vocation that suits you and is meant for you supercedes it.
Once that is understood, then you can move on which is better, given that they both are good.
If anything, both Mary and Joseph where married and celibant, I would certainly say that might bring the case that two of the greatest Saints where both, and essential to their Sainthood; they both are good.
If anything it might be to a person who ought to be married, to be humble enough to not go after the higher good of celibacy. We all help to provide for different functions. In the context of one’s life, the question is not very important; in the context of what Christianity is, the question can help shed some light on it.
Once that is understood, then you can move on which is better, given that they both are good.
If anything, both Mary and Joseph where married and celibant, I would certainly say that might bring the case that two of the greatest Saints where both, and essential to their Sainthood; they both are good.
If anything it might be to a person who ought to be married, to be humble enough to not go after the higher good of celibacy. We all help to provide for different functions. In the context of one’s life, the question is not very important; in the context of what Christianity is, the question can help shed some light on it.
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LittleDeb
Guest
I am going to have to agree with Petergee and Church Militant and others here on this. Of course in agreeing with them, we are also in agreement with Pope John Paul II.
One of the things he points out in TOB (Theology of the Body) is that a rejection of celibacy is a rejection of authentic marriage, and vice versa. That celibacy is a higher form of marriage is an important thing he points out. Celibates for the sake of the Kingdom are married, to Christ and to the Church.
Many seem to be looking at this from an earthly perspective rather than a heavenly one. In heaven we are ALL celibates. Widows and widowers are reunited with all spouses yet married to none. There is no sexual intercourse in heaven nor procreation because we have reached the ultimate purpose of both. We are united completely and fully with God.
It has been said that celibates for the Kingdom have skipped over earthly marriage for a heavenly marriage on earth. Not all are called to it here, but we are all surely called to the marriage feast in heaven. We are the Church. We are the Bride of Christ.
One of the things he points out in TOB (Theology of the Body) is that a rejection of celibacy is a rejection of authentic marriage, and vice versa. That celibacy is a higher form of marriage is an important thing he points out. Celibates for the sake of the Kingdom are married, to Christ and to the Church.
Many seem to be looking at this from an earthly perspective rather than a heavenly one. In heaven we are ALL celibates. Widows and widowers are reunited with all spouses yet married to none. There is no sexual intercourse in heaven nor procreation because we have reached the ultimate purpose of both. We are united completely and fully with God.
It has been said that celibates for the Kingdom have skipped over earthly marriage for a heavenly marriage on earth. Not all are called to it here, but we are all surely called to the marriage feast in heaven. We are the Church. We are the Bride of Christ.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Matthew 19:10-12
"10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it. "
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Atemi
Guest
Sorry, Michael, but nowhere in there does Christ say celibacy is better.
He does say it is given to some to be celibates, but that is far different from celibacy being better in general.
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Atemi
Guest
You are really growing very defensive and angry over this whole issue. If we cannot discuss this without accusations and anger, then we can just drop it. I have no problem discussing this civily.
As to what you say above, I understand, but that leaves the question I asked before:
How can celibacy for the Kingdom not be the greater good for some people (you said no) and also not the greater good for all people at the same time?
Is it the greater good for some?
You say no.
Is it the greater good for all?
You say no.
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HailMary
Guest
How about the Holy Spirit?
1 Cor 7:7. For I would that all men were even as myself. But every one hath his proper gift from God: one after this manner, and another after that.
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ElizabethAnne
Guest
This is, by far, the best example of the greater good of celibacy that I have ever heard. The crux of the issue is in your last sentence, “It is wrong to view these two goods as being in opposition to each other.” We are not in a “holier than thou” contest. We are called to be holy and to encourage everyone around us to be holy as well.
Those are excellent points, LittleDeb!
I think what Petergee is trying to say is that celibacy in and of itself is the greater of two goods (marriage and celibacy). Then, added that not all are called to be celibate. The fact that not all are called, does not invalidate the fact that celibacy is still a higher calling.
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MariaGorettiGrl
Guest
The GREATEST GOOD that we can ever do is to surrender our lives to God and live entirely as He desires us to. If God calls us to celibacy, then that is the greatest good there is for us. If God calls us to marriage, then that is the greatest good there is for us. The saints were not made saints because they all were celibate or they all were married or whatever else. They were saints because they surrendered themselves completely to God’s will for them personally!
If we reject God’s desires for us, then there is no goodness in our actions. If God calls us to be married and we instead reject that and live a celibate life, that is not holy and good because we are rejecting God’s omnipotence and love.
Human’s have this thing of trying to see what everybody else has and if it’s better than what they have. But it doesn’t matter what anyone else is doing. Our salvation doesn’t depend on what somebody else does. God isn’t going to turn us away from Heaven because somebody else was better than we were. All that matters to Him is us. We have to live the best life that we can and we have to trust in Him! God isn’t going to call us to marriage and than think less of us because we didn’t live celibately or vice versa.
Again, pay attention because this is important: God loves us and has an extraordinary plan for each and every one of us. The greatest thing that any of us can do with our life is to follow where God leads. Forget all the other paths. Nobody else’s path is right for us. If we try our hardest to stay on the path God made for us, then God will be proud and we can be proud knowing there is nothing better that we could ever do than let God control our lives!
If we reject God’s desires for us, then there is no goodness in our actions. If God calls us to be married and we instead reject that and live a celibate life, that is not holy and good because we are rejecting God’s omnipotence and love.
Human’s have this thing of trying to see what everybody else has and if it’s better than what they have. But it doesn’t matter what anyone else is doing. Our salvation doesn’t depend on what somebody else does. God isn’t going to turn us away from Heaven because somebody else was better than we were. All that matters to Him is us. We have to live the best life that we can and we have to trust in Him! God isn’t going to call us to marriage and than think less of us because we didn’t live celibately or vice versa.
Again, pay attention because this is important: God loves us and has an extraordinary plan for each and every one of us. The greatest thing that any of us can do with our life is to follow where God leads. Forget all the other paths. Nobody else’s path is right for us. If we try our hardest to stay on the path God made for us, then God will be proud and we can be proud knowing there is nothing better that we could ever do than let God control our lives!
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