Marriage Issue - Lost and Confused

[bernadettefaith]

bernadettefaith said:

“She’s generally unprofessional and compared me to her ex-husband. It’s not just that she supports divorce but basically just let’s Dh spend the session complaining with no suggestion on how to change anything he complains about.”

I had no idea that was what your pair sessions look like. Awful. A good counselor should have a plan for your sessions and should be pushing you along well-greased tracks, not just letting either of you gripe.

OK–on to the next counselor! This time, I suggest you give a brief overview of your situation for the first half of the appointment and then ask them to explain what they usually do in this situation in the second half. Maybe do a preliminary appointment with three counselors (if you can find that many in your area) and then together decide who to see. (If you can work well enough together to do that, that’s pretty much proof that you can save your marriage, in my opinion.) You can add a Christian counselor into the mix as one of the options, if you can find one. It might, or might not be helpful to also try for at least one male counselor among the three.

Good luck!

Good idea. I’ve found a male counselor who looks promising. His practice is secular but on his site he listed that he’s a practicing Catholic and was a former seminarian. I know that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s great at counseling but his profile appealed to me. He’s a bit far though. He also accepts our insurance.

There’s a female “Christian” counselor who is local to us. I think I’ll add her to the list as well.

I do still believe that talking to our pastor would be beneficial. At the same time, I’m a little nervous to do so because I am a catechist in our parish and know him well enough that he would be someone I’d like to use as a job reference, esp for a Catholic school job. I’ve been volunteering there for the last 6 years and it’s my main “work experience” since dd was born. Am I right to be afraid to bring up any past anger issues I’ve had?

 

[Xantippe]

The main problem I see with both of you talking to your pastor is that your husband will say, well of course you think we should stay together–you’re a Catholic priest. That message will unfortunately have less credibility coming from him.

There’s also the issue of having to deal with him in future, for both of you. It will probably be more comfortable talking to somebody you won’t have to see a lot of outside your meetings.

There are cases where I definitely think the pastor should be involved, but in your particular case, I’m not seeing the benefit, unless you’d just like some advice. I don’t think you would benefit from bringing your husband in to talk to the pastor, unless he has a strong pre-existing relationship with the pastor.

On the other hand, if the pastor is somebody you’ve known for a long time, and he were able to give your husband a glowing account of his memories of your courtship and early marriage and how in love you both were with each other, that could be very valuable.

 

[bernadettefaith]

When I contacted the diocese to see if they had any counselors to recommend, they said that maybe Msgr would work with us. I told her that might make us uncomfortable and they were unable to find anyone else. They said our priest is the main one they would contact for marriage related issues. He really is awesome, probably my favorite priest ever. He did know us as newlyweds but wasn’t the priest we grew up with as we moved after marriage. Dh really likes him. He knows us both on a first name basis as well as our children.

If we could get in contact with him, the priest from the parish we attended growing up would be excellent. My in-laws were still in contact with him last I checked. We met at his parish and were both catechists there at some point. However, I don’t know that he would be able to work with us since we are no longer parishioners. Dh’s family was very close to him. He could absolutely give a glowing account of our early years together.

 

[Serap]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Really? So men who have sex feel “love”? Uh no…men will have sex with anything that moves and not feel a thing. Happens all the time outside of the fishbowl world. And yes, women do the same.

Why not have him “seduce” her? He said he would “try” anything. Why does the one who has the most to lose in this situation have to become the beacon of ideas.

I remember when when women thought getting pregnant would make them stay in a marriage or relationship…eh, that doesn’t work…never did.

With all respect, your advice is extremely negative and anti men.

 

[Serap]

Not having sex has nothing to do with the separation. He’s still living in our residence.and there can be no cohabitation. I’ve read the law and he cannot share the same residence during that time, even without sex.

I cannot go back to work as a teacher right now. In the fall I can job search but I can’t go back tomorrow. They rarely hire in the middle of the school year other than a sub job. Which I am planning on doing.

I never said that my dad would pay my mortgage or housing expenses or that I wouldn’t work. If I’m not hired as a teacher, I can work toward a less desirable job, like certified nurse’s aide. I’ve had friends easily get hired in that field and training is quick.

I’m not sure how I will get the job at the moment. I would have to leave the house to live in a different area. The only reason I live where I do is because of dh’s job. I don’t want to be the one to leave our residence. I don’t think I should have to be the one to leave. If I move then babysitting is free. Right now, where I live, I can only get free babysitting if Dh is home which isn’t often. Substitute teaching is probably one of the only fields that flexible. If not for free babysitting then going to work isn’t going to give me any additional money. If I get divorced, I’d be quitting the job anyway because I have no reason to remain in this area.

I’ve looked at job openings. I’ve looked for housing. I’ve looked into the possibility of moving across the country to find a teaching job. I’m not convinced that I should be taking that step right now as I don’t want to initiate a separation. I’ve read up on the laws regarding separation and child support. I am not sure what else I can do.

 

[LROH]

Thank you!
I do try to avoid any and all relationship talk outside of counseling. Usually we end up talking about it for a day after counseling but not always. We’ve mostly talked about whether or not the counselor is effective. Usually I just get my relationship talk out of my system by coming here or talking to other friends.

I’m able to keep distracted and busy with the kids - unless he’s home. Then of course I get reminded of how distant he is.

I did bring up Retrouvaille on Sat. after counseling but that’s because if we go I need to schedule that ahead of time. He’s on board with it.

Other than that, I don’t tell him the suggestions I get from others unless he asks. He has asked a few times and I’ve given him some details, but not all.

If you don’t mind sharing, did you end up working things out in your marriage? You can message me if you want - or if that’s too personal it’s ok not to share

It’s very personal and not very pretty right now…the timid man I married 29 years ago was removed from our home yesterday as a domestic abuser yet again.

The man who was afraid of hurting my feelings is unable to effectively work through conflict. He sees his personal gratification as an entitlement and mistakenly believes trying to control the world around him will make it more palatable.

It is of course my fault for making it worse by calling the police for intervention.

same game…he gets angry, acts inappropriatly then further alienates with the silent treatment expecting me to bridge the gap and reconcile by squashing my feelings/issues that are too inconvenent to deal with…to get onto the next order of business, material or fiscal concern.

The response to my initial email says it all…“coming by to get stuff…as for the rest I’m not even going to acknowledge it as it is all one sided” then a justification for the tantrum yesterday. Next he sends a different email…wants to arrange meeting to discuss several pressing issues, btw have the kid (23) there as this will affect her too (she and her son live with us, we are putting her through school)

I responded…I presented my issues for discussion, what truly matters to me on the table… The response was no acknowledgement of what I presented. WHOOSH table clear no problem.

I acknowledge we have several pressing issues to cope with that will indeed affect all of us. I can appreciate the desire to negotiate solutions to these issues. I don’t believe it’s in my interest to negotiate issues with someone unwilling to acknowledge the issues I present.

10 emails later he wants a time out from the emotional but expects me to be ready to deal with the fiscal issues…right now…to get HIS ducks in a row. (Fiscally were fine if we separate for a year…if we divorce I’m up a creek as he just quit his job to start a business using 401k and reserving cash he inherited while using equity in house for his 60k car…as a SAHW/M I haven’t had a paying job in 23 years)

At this time he is so angry that he doesn’t see…it doesn’t matter who did what, we can’t continue to do this.

I don’t know if he will get help for the personal gratification (porn) issues that have escalated to the point of domestic violence…control via…deny, deflect, justify and blame. Regardless of what he does I have to work on the ways I perpetuated this long saga and sadly that isn’t possible remaining in the environment.

Trying to walk through the denial, blame accusations is fruitless. Yet I’ve done it time and time again in hopes that it would make it better, AVOIDANCE OF CONFLICT became my way of life too…after overhearing the neighbor discuss how disgraceful he treats her and the need to remove her children from the awful language…I became too ashamed to walk in the neighborhood, they were talking about me. Reality is these people moved to get away from our arguing…I participated.

So it’s HIS house, HIS money, HIS …vs OUR

His major concern at this moment…lawyers will add to the cost of separation…aka meet now so I can tell you how I plan to control you financially.

Yep not very pretty…after last round of Retrouvaille I finally understood why the priest offered me an annulment in 1994…I thought he didn’t understand, I wanted to know how to stay married despite the issues, he knew better than I, yet I still harbor a small hope hubby may calm down and use the time living in an apartment to wake up. Regardless of what he chooses I can no longer play the destructive game.

 

[Julianna]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

With all respect, your advice is extremely negative and anti men.

I respect your opinion. Not anti men more of a realist. Sbe needs to protect herself. If he de ides to leave there isn’t anything anyone can do about it. I wanted her to see the cold light of day and make plans to care for herself should he decide to go. However from her last few posts I believe that should he go she and her children will be taken care of. A lot of wom.en arent so lucky.

 

[Xantippe]

LROH,

You will use a lawyer, I take it.

That’s very sad, for you and for your whole family. Is there some sort of mental illness involved, because it sounds like a very extreme situation?

 

[Xantippe]

LROH said:

“Fiscally were fine if we separate for a year…if we divorce I’m up a creek as he just quit his job to start a business using 401k and reserving cash he inherited while using equity in house for his 60k car…as a SAHW/M I haven’t had a paying job in 23 years”

Presumably, the right lawyer would be able to analyze these shenanigans and shut them down and figure out this shell game that your husband has been playing with your marital assets. Have you spoken to anybody yet? It sounds like the quicker you move, the better, as he’s capable of running through your entire marital property within a few months.

 

[bernadettefaith]

LROH, I am so very sorry to hear about that. You are in my prayers.

 

[LROH]

LROH said:

“Fiscally were fine if we separate for a year…if we divorce I’m up a creek as he just quit his job to start a business using 401k and reserving cash he inherited while using equity in house for his 60k car…as a SAHW/M I haven’t had a paying job in 23 years”

Presumably, the right lawyer would be able to analyze these shenanigans and shut them down and figure out this shell game that your husband has been playing with your marital assets. Have you spoken to anybody yet? It sounds like the quicker you move, the better, as he’s capable of running through your entire marital property within a few months.

Yes a few weeks ago i started DV counseling after a nasty name calling fest on his part…they referred me to attorney “This is gonna be messy, looks like he has been planning and has set it up so you are liable for the debts from the reduced marital assets and he gets to keep the inheritance” he already did the shell game…now it’s in my interest to let him proceed knowing the reality I face.

At this point if I wind up living in a one room shack free of the abuse…it would be heaven compared to the fine upscale suburban house pretending to be a home.

If he’s that hot to trot to get fiscal in the absence of getting emotional ducks in a row…I’ll help him by setting up mediation for a legal agreement, otherwise it would just plain be foolish to try and work out fiscal and material agreements with someone who has a violent tirade over a full washer/dryer? that upset his apple cart

Thank you for prayers…he needs them too.

 

[Xantippe]

LROH said:

“This is gonna be messy, looks like he has been planning and has set it up so you are liable for the debts from the reduced marital assets and he gets to keep the inheritance” he already did the shell game…now it’s in my interest to let him proceed knowing the reality I face."

I was just looking up “forensic cpa divorce” and it looks like it’s a flourishing field. I’m particularly curious about your husband’s business accounting, because that is an especially promising area for making income disappear. It’s certainly curious that he quit his job and chose to start a new business just now. I would want to turn a forensic CPA loose in his business records.

You’ve got your old age to think about, as well as your kids–a year or two of effort now will make a huge difference in how comfortable your golden years are.

 

[LROH]

Yes forensic analysis of all assets, liabilities as well as expenditures will be a part of the process. It won’t be cheap or quick…probably a two year process to a final settlement.

It was all part of the manipulation…keeping cash on hand…tax benefits for using 401k etc

No matter how this plays out I’ll be getting a paying job. When I mentioned going back to work a few months ago to rebuild my esteem with outside affirmation…no just volunteer…yep he wanted the pride and ownership of the SAHW/M while reserving the right to grip about the expense.

 

[LROH]

LROH,

You will use a lawyer, I take it.

That’s very sad, for you and for your whole family. Is there some sort of mental illness involved, because it sounds like a very extreme situation?

Yes it is very sad.
Yes adjustment disorder avoidance of conflict via unhealthy coping skills.

The issues that were on the up and up in 2003 were compounded when he lost his job and we had to relocate. The girls were both in high school and of course not happy further compounding his inability to be emotionally supportive.

Yes it did grow to extremes, amazing but true it’s much easier to see how bad they have it while hoping to fix my own troubles yet not see just how big my own were.

 

[Serap]

It’s very personal and not very pretty right now…the timid man I married 29 years ago was removed from our home yesterday as a domestic abuser yet again.

The man who was afraid of hurting my feelings is unable to effectively work through conflict. He sees his personal gratification as an entitlement and mistakenly believes trying to control the world around him will make it more palatable.

It is of course my fault for making it worse by calling the police for intervention.

same game…he gets angry, acts inappropriatly then further alienates with the silent treatment expecting me to bridge the gap and reconcile by squashing my feelings/issues that are too inconvenent to deal with…to get onto the next order of business, material or fiscal concern.

The response to my initial email says it all…“coming by to get stuff…as for the rest I’m not even going to acknowledge it as it is all one sided” then a justification for the tantrum yesterday. Next he sends a different email…wants to arrange meeting to discuss several pressing issues, btw have the kid (23) there as this will affect her too (she and her son live with us, we are putting her through school)

I responded…I presented my issues for discussion, what truly matters to me on the table… The response was no acknowledgement of what I presented. WHOOSH table clear no problem.

I acknowledge we have several pressing issues to cope with that will indeed affect all of us. I can appreciate the desire to negotiate solutions to these issues. I don’t believe it’s in my interest to negotiate issues with someone unwilling to acknowledge the issues I present.

10 emails later he wants a time out from the emotional but expects me to be ready to deal with the fiscal issues…right now…to get HIS ducks in a row. (Fiscally were fine if we separate for a year…if we divorce I’m up a creek as he just quit his job to start a business using 401k and reserving cash he inherited while using equity in house for his 60k car…as a SAHW/M I haven’t had a paying job in 23 years)

At this time he is so angry that he doesn’t see…it doesn’t matter who did what, we can’t continue to do this.

I don’t know if he will get help for the personal gratification (porn) issues that have escalated to the point of domestic violence…control via…deny, deflect, justify and blame. Regardless of what he does I have to work on the ways I perpetuated this long saga and sadly that isn’t possible remaining in the environment.

Trying to walk through the denial, blame accusations is fruitless. Yet I’ve done it time and time again in hopes that it would make it better, AVOIDANCE OF CONFLICT became my way of life too…after overhearing the neighbor discuss how disgraceful he treats her and the need to remove her children from the awful language…I became too ashamed to walk in the neighborhood, they were talking about me. Reality is these people moved to get away from our arguing…I participated.

So it’s HIS house, HIS money, HIS …vs OUR

His major concern at this moment…lawyers will add to the cost of separation…aka meet now so I can tell you how I plan to control you financially.

Yep not very pretty…after last round of Retrouvaille I finally understood why the priest offered me an annulment in 1994…I thought he didn’t understand, I wanted to know how to stay married despite the issues, he knew better than I, yet I still harbor a small hope hubby may calm down and use the time living in an apartment to wake up. Regardless of what he chooses I can no longer play the destructive game.

Blessings to you and your family. I’m so sorry.

 

[Serap]

I respect your opinion. Not anti men more of a realist. Sbe needs to protect herself. If he de ides to leave there isn’t anything anyone can do about it. I wanted her to see the cold light of day and make plans to care for herself should he decide to go. However from her last few posts I believe that should he go she and her children will be taken care of. A lot of wom.en arent so lucky.

She is a very intelligent competent and capable woman. Up until now, she has made very good choices and is very aware of all of the consequences of his and her actions.

It’s great that we are all trying to help her. BF has lots of support here.

 

[Serap]

Yes forensic analysis of all assets, liabilities as well as expenditures will be a part of the process. It won’t be cheap or quick…probably a two year process to a final settlement.

It was all part of the manipulation…keeping cash on hand…tax benefits for using 401k etc

No matter how this plays out I’ll be getting a paying job. When I mentioned going back to work a few months ago to rebuild my esteem with outside affirmation…no just volunteer…yep he wanted the pride and ownership of the SAHW/M while reserving the right to grip about the expense.

He sounds very narcissistic indeed. You poor thing! I am saddened by your predicament.

You should never be ashamed of trying to make a marriage work, but sometimes, we have to see things for what they are and cut our losses. Unfortunately abuse is something that is very insidious and us women have a tendency to justify it in our minds in order to cope. In order to create peace, we allow ourselves to be manipulated. I’m glad you are being strong and developing a new sense of self. Good for you!

 

[LROH]

He sounds very narcissistic indeed. You poor thing! I am saddened by your predicament.

You should never be ashamed of trying to make a marriage work, but sometimes, we have to see things for what they are and cut our losses. Unfortunately abuse is something that is very insidious and us women have a tendency to justify it in our minds in order to cope. In order to create peace, we allow ourselves to be manipulated. I’m glad you are being strong and developing a new sense of self. Good for you!

I have no shame for trying to make our marriage work…I have shame for the WAYS I tried. It hurts to see that however good my intentions my methods were not helpful and often destructive to the purpose I wanted to achieve.

I still have hope that we will each use the separation to work on our individual roles to reconcile as a functional couple. I expect we will each have difficulty learning new ways of healthy interaction…the more intimidating (or blatant abuser) isn’t the only one who has been manipulative. Many “accommodations” or “compromises” we make are an attempt to manipulate their behavior.

We both need prayer for strength and direction through the upcoming changes.

 

[Serap]

I have no shame for trying to make our marriage work…I have shame for the WAYS I tried. It hurts to see that however good my intentions my methods were not helpful and often destructive to the purpose I wanted to achieve.

I still have hope that we will each use the separation to work on our individual roles to reconcile as a functional couple. I expect we will each have difficulty learning new ways of healthy interaction…the more intimidating (or blatant abuser) isn’t the only one who has been manipulative. Many “accommodations” or “compromises” we make are an attempt to manipulate their behavior.

We both need prayer for strength and direction through the upcoming changes.

I will pray for you!

 

[bernadettefaith]

Today I’m seeing our current therapist for the last time. We already have individual counseling scheduled so I might as well go. I think I’m finally going to confront her about all the “ex talk”. Dh doesn’t think she’s comparing me to him, but when her ex comes up every time he brings up my anger what am I supposed to think? He agreed that she sides with him now though he says that he felt she was initially neutral. When I talk to her individually she seems to make me feel better by telling me I’m not the entire problem. Then when we do couple’s therapy she more or less lets him rule the session by talking about how anxious the marriage makes him. If I try to talk, I feel like she just “sides” with him and they gang up on me. Or half the time she just give no (name removed by moderator)ut and I feel as if we are paying her for a conversation that could have happened in our own living room. In fact, I probably get more of a say when I talk to dh and she isn’t around because I don’t have her there to interrupt me. She tells me individually that there might be another cause of his anxiety but in couple’s sessions she doesn’t say anything when he insists that I’m the sole cause of all of his problems.

Whenever I express concern about the lack of suggestions from her, she just tells me that therapists don’t have all the answers. I get that, really I do, but to not have a single suggestion other than “have fun together” doesn’t really help. I don’t expect miracles but I also don’t think that it’s productive to have every session become a free for all.

He’s also told me that during his individual sessions, she insists that he should not be feeling guilty. Then she will insist to me that I should not be feeling guilty as well. I get that it’s not good to dwell on guilt but I do take responsibility for my actions. I don’t know that it’s a good idea to tell each of us individually “It’s not your fault.” I think that we should each be accountable for our part in this. He does feel guilty for wanting to leave and I think that it is a good thing. She probably tells him not to feel guilty because he should do what is best for him and not to worry about the children or me. I’m not there but I would imagine because she’s always encouraging us to do what is best for ourselves and encouraging the “me first” attitude.

She asks him when the last time I did any of this was and he always responds with “a very long time”. I guess maybe he’s just dealing with it all at once and it’s overwhelming him.

I get that he’s not 100% committed to the relationship but he says that he’s willing to try. I don’t think that she should say, “Nothing can be done because you’re on two different pages.” If he were 100% committed then we probably wouldn’t be there. I feel like she’s saying that we can’t work on anything because he’s not sure if he wants to stay or go. He’s at least staying for a year, which she acknowledges.

I’m talking to a therapist over the phone today. She specializes in law enforcement therapy and counseled NYPD after 9/11. Maybe she can help me.