Marriage, kinds of sex when not able to have children

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I had a moral question come up that I do not have the answer for and was hoping to get some insights from all the “experts”. What is allowed as far as sex within the marriage when the husband had a vasectomy years before returning to the Church and recently the wife had to have all of her reproductive organs removed. They are both in their 50’s. I know that the Church teaches that sex has to be open for procreation, yet with this case the wife cannot have children, so how does this play out as far as “no spilling the seed”. Can this couple practice oral sex etc.
 
I think it is permitted as long as the goal is to “follow through” :D.

If you have any “accidents” or anything, it’s no big deal as long as they aren’t intentional.

I think…
 
I heard a question just like this on Fr. Corapi last week. The answer was that as long as oral sex is not the goal or other types of “foreplay” and that it leads to culmination of the marital act, there is nothing wrong with it. Of course I am assuming that absolution was given the husband for the sin of contraception. Hope this helps.
Of course normal sexual relations between this couple is permited even though there is very little chance if any of conception.God Bless!
 
OK, so never mind about oral sex–what if the act isn’t culminated–just due to fatigue, lack of function, long-standing contraceptive mentality from the past (I’m a new Catholic, he’s not–also, I’m not a mind-reader)–what then? Who, if anyone, is sinning here? This tends to put a lot of pressure on sex, doesn’t it? I haven’t found the answer to this one in any books. Maybe we’re just weird.
 
I don’t know the answer to that either, actually I had the same type of question. My husband and I would like to be open to life and want to be having another child any time now…the problem is we are just too tired all the time. He works a lot and we really only have time for each other at all on the weekends. I think that could be part of why we can’t seem to get pregnant right now.

I start to worry sometimes that we never will because I track my fertility and it seems like my fertile days always fall on “oh go away and let me sleep” days.
 
Ok, this is where the logical side of me asks the question because I know it will be the first one asked. And it is - what is the reasoning for finishing the sex act “for the last few seconds” in union with the wife if she is not capable of conceiving children. You know this is where the woman has every right to complain considering what and where!
 
MikeB.:
Ok, this is where the logical side of me asks the question because I know it will be the first one asked. And it is - what is the reasoning for finishing the sex act “for the last few seconds” in union with the wife if she is not capable of conceiving children. You know this is where the woman has every right to complain considering what and where!
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Your unstated assumption is that between the vasectomy and her hysterectomy pregnancy will not occur even with the marriage act. If you allow for the possibility of a miraculous pregnancy, the answer becomes evident.

I hope this clarifies the reasoning.
 
Bear with me while I try to take a crack at all of these:

Mike B: I see what you are saying… it’s impossible to get pregnant… hmmm :hmmm: I might have to look that one up… One would have to be careful to make sure that it was a mutual effort. If the man is getting 100% out of it, what would be the difference from masterbation? The congugal act should be experienced together… I’ll have to get back to you

But I just wanted to add that in my NFP class we recommend (The Couple to Couple League) that couples who are infertile or past child bearing years still practice the occational week of abstenance to continue to reap the same benefits of NFP.

Christian4life: I am in the same boat as you. It doesn’t sound like we are doing anything wrong. Both spouses have to want sex and if you’re too tired it’s nobody’s fault. But if it is one sided, Fr. Angelus on EWTN says there should be more effort from the other party (not that it has to be every night) Besides, if you both really want children, maybe prayer is needed to find the energy. Good Luck 🙂

Lamb100: The book recommended earlier by Christopher West “The Good News about Sex & Marriage” is a great resource. Also, The Couple to Couple League has a brochure that outlines all these questions nicely. PM if you need the name (I don’t remember right now) In answer to your question though, oral sex is OK if the intent is to culminate… but we all know “things” happen… you will “know” if you intentionally avoid “finishing”. Hope this helps 😉
 
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Ignatius:
Your unstated assumption is that between the vasectomy and her hysterectomy pregnancy will not occur even with the marriage act. If you allow for the possibility of a miraculous pregnancy, the answer becomes evident.
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I’m honestly not sure if you are being serious or not. God could miracle a baby into existence no matter where the husband releases his seed.

The reason why a man must release his seed into the traditional location has little to do with the possiblilty of God miracling the woman’s uterus back into place.
 
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Benedictus:
I’m honestly not sure if you are being serious or not. God could miracle a baby into existence no matter where the husband releases his seed.

The reason why a man must release his seed into the traditional location has little to do with the possiblilty of God miracling the woman’s uterus back into place.
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I guess again I ask what is the reason
 
MikeB.:
I guess again I ask what is the reason
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My instinctive reaction is to “trust in God for all things are possible”. I guess that would mean even though what we believe is impossible, is not impossible for God.
 
what is the reasoning for finishing the sex act “for the last few seconds” in union with the wife if she is not capable of conceiving children.
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Non-procreative sex is not immoral. Human action which renders sex non-procreative is immoral.

So you have to ask yourself, is she not capable of conceiving because of human acts? If so, then you ought to cease and desists in human acts.
 
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Lamb100:
OK, --what if the act isn’t culminated–just due to fatigue, lack of function, long-standing contraceptive mentality from the past (I’m a new Catholic, he’s not–also, I’m not a mind-reader)–what then? Who, if anyone, is sinning here? This tends to put a lot of pressure on sex, doesn’t it? I haven’t found the answer to this one in any books. Maybe we’re just weird.
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nobody is sinning if the intent is to have normal conjugal sex, hey it happens, what is a sin if deliberately one or both partners puts a barrier - chemical or mechanical – between themselves and deliberately try to frustrate the natural purpose of sex, whic is procreative an unitive.
 
MikeB.:
I guess again I ask what is the reason
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What’s wrong with the answer "Because God gave us the Church to guide us and the Church says ‘no.’ ?
 
I would say beware of taking a legalistic, mechanistic approach to this, e.g. “the church says every act should be open to life, but the couple is 100% infertile due to surgery, so there can be no conception, so then anything goes!” or even with the attitude that anything goes so long as you “finish in the right place”.

Whatever the couple does sexually should be in keeping with the dignity of the couple, which for example would preclude doing anything violent or demeaning or unnatural. Now I think the church is intentionally a little vague in setting out rules for exactly what you can and can’t do, when, where, and how depending on your age, fertility, etc. Context and intention are very important… is oral sex something that is agreed on mutually, and performed and received with love, and leads to a strengthening of the marital bond? Or is it a “forbidden pleasure” that the man has heard his buddies at work talking about, or seen in a movie, and wants his wife to do it so he can get in on the action, and infertility is just a rationalization for trying it out? Because in the latter case, it would be wrong, even if it is followed through with normal intercourse, because he’s objectifying his wife. And in the former case, I’m not sure that it’s 100% wrong if occasionally it doesn’t culminate in normal intercourse (with all due respect to “Good News About Sex and Marriage”). It’s a fine line, but I don’t think it’s the church’s intention to specify that the male ejaculation itself and the sperm contained therein are what’s sacred about the sex act, and so long as that ends up in the right place then everything’s fine. But then I think it’s wrong if you use that reasoning as a dodge, and make oral sex an occasional focus of your lovemaking. Nor should any other specific act or body part be the focus - it has to be the whole persons, and the sacramental bond that unites the couple, that is the focus.

Sorry if that makes things more confusing… :confused:
 
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p.e.driver:
But I just wanted to add that in my NFP class we recommend (The Couple to Couple League) that couples who are infertile or past child bearing years still practice the occational week of abstenance to continue to reap the same benefits of NFP.
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I just don’t get this…I’ve heard it before but I think it misses the value of marital intimacy. I understand that couples using NFP can benefit from the period if abstinence as it causes them to focus on other ways of expressing their love for each other, but to artificially impose this seems to underestimate the value of teh conjugal act. Sex in marriage is a beatiful wonderful thing. God designed the married couple to be aroused by each other and follow through with this holy expression of their love. Why (except only when important circumstances that would warrant NFP) would a couple abstain from this expression of love.

It seems to me that if the marital act is good and holy then abstaining from it for some sort of spiritual gain would be akin to abstaining from daily Mass in order to grow more holy. I say rejoice in this gift from God and in rare unfortunate circumstances when you cannot due to NFP then offer that up and make the best of it.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
So you have to ask yourself, is she not capable of conceiving because of human acts? If so, then you ought to cease and desists in human acts.
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The reason for the inability to have children is not as a birth control device but due to female complications that demanded the surgery.
 
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st_felicity:
What’s wrong with the answer "Because God gave us the Church to guide us and the Church says ‘no.’ ?
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Felicity, I fully appreciate this fact but there is nothing wrong with expressing questions as to the logic of a “fallible” doctrine. Some teaching of the Church have been modified as time went by.
 
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