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lovemyboys
Guest
Was the marriage of Mary and Joseph arranged? Was arranged marriage the norm at that time among the Jews? I’ve heard that there was a huge age difference between Joseph and Mary-- do we know if that’s true?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Mary was bethroed to Joseph by the Temple priests when she reached puberty.
I believe at that time in Jewish society, it was the norm for a man to approach the parents of the girl and ask for her hand in marriage. There would also be a dowry.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
"According to Jewish custom, marriage took place in two stages: first, the legal, or true marriage was celebrated, and then, only after a certain period of time, the husband brought the wife into his own house. Thus, before he lived with Mary, Joseph was already her ‘husband.’ " (Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Custos, n. 18).
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_15081989_redemptoris-custos_en.html
According to Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich in the Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Joseph was about 30 years older than Mary.
The Temple priests sought a husband for Mary because she was one of the Temple virgins. Joseph was among some men considered. A test under God’s providence was used by the priests, whereby each man would have a branch of a tree with a closed blossom on it. The branches would be placed on a altar and prayers would be said. Over time, whichever blossom opened first would indicate with man was to be the husband of the temple virgin in question: “they were told that the one among them whose branch blossomed was destined by the Lord to be married to the maiden Mary of Nazareth.” (Emmerich, Life of BVM, p. 82 ebook).
Joseph was given a dry branch, because he was so much older and they did not wish him to be chosen. But the dry branch miraculously bloomed. And this is why statues of Joseph often have him holding a branch with a blossom on it. This bloom on the dry branch was foreshadowed by “the rod of Aaron which had blossomed” (Hebrews 9:4).
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_15081989_redemptoris-custos_en.html
According to Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich in the Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Joseph was about 30 years older than Mary.
The Temple priests sought a husband for Mary because she was one of the Temple virgins. Joseph was among some men considered. A test under God’s providence was used by the priests, whereby each man would have a branch of a tree with a closed blossom on it. The branches would be placed on a altar and prayers would be said. Over time, whichever blossom opened first would indicate with man was to be the husband of the temple virgin in question: “they were told that the one among them whose branch blossomed was destined by the Lord to be married to the maiden Mary of Nazareth.” (Emmerich, Life of BVM, p. 82 ebook).
Joseph was given a dry branch, because he was so much older and they did not wish him to be chosen. But the dry branch miraculously bloomed. And this is why statues of Joseph often have him holding a branch with a blossom on it. This bloom on the dry branch was foreshadowed by “the rod of Aaron which had blossomed” (Hebrews 9:4).
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Barbkw
Guest
Knowing what we do about the our own generation (chastity vs unchastity) I find it a bit humorous that in ancient days there were Jewish consecrated virgins and then there were pagan or Artemis temple prostitutes.
Jewish marriage traditions would be very interesting to read about because in Sacred Scripture, God’s relationship to Israel is so often quoted across salvation history as being a marriage. Jesus’ relationship to His Church is seen as Bridegroom and Bride.
Through Mary’s words, Apostolic tradition told the early Church that she told Gabriel that she could not become pregnant because she “knew not man” and yet Joseph was betrothed to her.
According to Scripture, Israel did regulated marriage laws, a brother was required to marry and provide for his deceased brothers’ wife (Luke 20 - Matthew 22).
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Phillip_Rolfes
Guest
The “small-t” tradition of the Byzantine East is that Joseph was much older than Mary, that he had been married before and had several children (hence the reference in the Gospels to the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus), but that his first spouse had died. As Constantine pointed out, Mary was betrothed to Joseph by the Temple priests after she had reached puberty.
There is a Patristic document, much loved in the East, known as the proto-evangelium of James, which demonstrates Joseph’s reluctance to betroth himself to Mary due to their age difference. I believe an angel appeared to him and commanded him to betroth himself to Mary, but I could be remembering that part wrong. If you want to read it the document is available on newadvent.org
There is a Patristic document, much loved in the East, known as the proto-evangelium of James, which demonstrates Joseph’s reluctance to betroth himself to Mary due to their age difference. I believe an angel appeared to him and commanded him to betroth himself to Mary, but I could be remembering that part wrong. If you want to read it the document is available on newadvent.org
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ConstantineTG
Guest
“Knew not a man” was a euphemism for “I haven’t had sex with any man.” It was an affirmation of her virginity, not her bethroal.
Being bethroed, the marriage is not completed and therefore no consumation should take place.
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Barbkw
Guest
I guess I’ve never questioned the virginity of a 14 year old Jewish girl. Particularly when they could be stoned to death for such actions.
The greater point within the account, was that Gabriel told her that she would have a son. To which she replied she could not because she “knew not man”.
As a bethrothed / and soon to be married woman, under normal circumstances, she would eventually become pregnant and deliver a son (as Sarah did). Unless what you are meaning is that Mary assumed Gabriel meant immediately, prior to marriage, she and Joseph would become pregnant while she was bethrothed.
I’ve never taken it to mean immediately, I’ve taken her responce to mean that she and Joseph had no intention of a sexual relationship existing between them, after marriage.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
In a way it does affirm the tradition found in the Protoevangelium. Because if Mary is bethroed to a man whom she will actually marry and the man is young enough to sire a child, then Mary wouldn’t be as surprised. If she was actually engaged to be married to Joseph, the marriage would have been within the next year and the conception would take place soon after. So why the surprise if she was getting married? So Gabriel could have been clear that it was to happen right there and then, or that she wasn’t going to marry yet.
If the Protoevangelium is to be followed, Joachim and Anne would have passed by the time of Mary’s puberty, so there would have been no parents or older brothers to giver her hand in marriage. So she was bethroed in guardianship to Joseph, an older man.
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TMC
Guest
We have some stories in the tradition, including those from the Protoevangelium that are mentioned by earlier posters, but we don’t really know much more about their marriage than what is in Scripture. One of the reasons that people believe Joseph was much older than Mary is that would explain why Joseph is last mentioned in the Gospels when Jesus is 12. Whether their marriage was arranged or not, whether Joseph was much older than Mary, even whether Joseph died before Jesus began his public ministry are all interesting questions, but I don’t think any of them have much theological significance and the Church does not have any definitive teaching on them one way or the other.
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lovemyboys
Guest
Thanks for all the fascinating responses!!
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AlabamaCatholic
Guest
It should be noted that most Western theologians do not hold to this hypothesis.The “small-t” tradition of the Byzantine East is that Joseph was much older than Mary, that he had been married before and had several children (hence the reference in the Gospels to the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus), but that his first spouse had died. As Constantine pointed out, Mary was betrothed to Joseph by the Temple priests after she had reached puberty.
There is a Patristic document, much loved in the East, known as the proto-evangelium of James, which demonstrates Joseph’s reluctance to betroth himself to Mary due to their age difference. I believe an angel appeared to him and commanded him to betroth himself to Mary, but I could be remembering that part wrong. If you want to read it the document is available on newadvent.org
I am not criticizing you for pointing it out, friend, as it certainly doesn’t hold the rank of Sacred Tradition. Latin tradition more commonly holds that while Joseph was older, he was probably not some elderly widower.
When we refer to St. Joseph, “Most chaste spouse,” I believe the Latin tradition more beautifully captures that.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Did the Bible even say they actually got married? To me after reading Protoevangelium, Joseph’s apprehensions seemed to make more sense. A lover feeling spurned would have left completely or turned her over to be stoned immediately.
Also, note that the tradition in Protoevangelium is held in high regard in the East as the Entrance of the Theotokos to the Temple is only found in the Protoevangelium and is one of the 12 Great Feasts of the Byzantine Rite. It even outranks the Conception of the Theotokos.
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adrift
Guest
The angel tells Joseph not to be afraid to take Mary his wife into his home. The second part of marriage consisted of the man taking the woman into his home so Yes the Bible does say they got married.
In another thread, a Jew said that there was no such thing in the Jewish faith as a temple virgin. I could not find anything to dipute this. Does someone have a source that proves there was such a thing as temple virgins?
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