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Augustinian
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Not true, Mick Jagger and Bianca were married in the fancy French resort of Saint-Tropez by a Catholic priest.
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Phemie
Guest
This situation exists in our diocese. There is one isolated parish, on an island, that can only be reached by air or snowmobile in the winter. They often don’t see a priest for months at a time. When the fishery was in full swing this community had a population of between 3000-4000. They had a priest who lived there.
Since the fishery died in the early 90s the population has dropped to fewer than 150. In subsequent years they’ve had a sister as director of parish life and at one point a deacon who continued to minister to them for about 18 months after he was ordained priest. But for the last 10 years or so they have been considered a mission of our parish and see a priest at Christmas and Easter, if the weather cooperates, and maybe for a funeral or wedding, again if the weather cooperates. At least one couple I know of exchanged consent before the director of parish life.
In that parish I’ve known the bishop to be unable to fly in for the planned Confirmation ceremonies due to the weather and the priest who was there at the time was delegated to confirm the candidates. At least a few families opted to wait until the next year so that the Bishop would be the one imposing the sacrament. I can see if a wedding was planned and the priest was unable to get there for it that the couple could exchange consent in front of witnesses and it would be valid.
Since the fishery died in the early 90s the population has dropped to fewer than 150. In subsequent years they’ve had a sister as director of parish life and at one point a deacon who continued to minister to them for about 18 months after he was ordained priest. But for the last 10 years or so they have been considered a mission of our parish and see a priest at Christmas and Easter, if the weather cooperates, and maybe for a funeral or wedding, again if the weather cooperates. At least one couple I know of exchanged consent before the director of parish life.
In that parish I’ve known the bishop to be unable to fly in for the planned Confirmation ceremonies due to the weather and the priest who was there at the time was delegated to confirm the candidates. At least a few families opted to wait until the next year so that the Bishop would be the one imposing the sacrament. I can see if a wedding was planned and the priest was unable to get there for it that the couple could exchange consent in front of witnesses and it would be valid.
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CRM_Brother
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There are resorts with authorized Catholic Chapels which are affiliated to the local parish, usually in largely Catholic countries which have Sunday mass there for the guests and staff. These are licit venues for marriage.
Also, you do not need an ordained priest for the sacrament of marriage. The sacrament of marriage is considered primordial, which means it is ingrained with our very natures as man and woman. The couple marries themselves. There simply needs to be witnesses. The priest or deacon is there to bless the marriage. It is not invalid. It is simply illicit if it is done with the proper vows. Couples who have been married outside the Church and enter into it are not married again, but go through the blessing of the marriage in a rite called Convalidation. ‘Con’ meaning with. Thus the blessing takes place with the valid primordial nature of the marriage.
Also, you do not need an ordained priest for the sacrament of marriage. The sacrament of marriage is considered primordial, which means it is ingrained with our very natures as man and woman. The couple marries themselves. There simply needs to be witnesses. The priest or deacon is there to bless the marriage. It is not invalid. It is simply illicit if it is done with the proper vows. Couples who have been married outside the Church and enter into it are not married again, but go through the blessing of the marriage in a rite called Convalidation. ‘Con’ meaning with. Thus the blessing takes place with the valid primordial nature of the marriage.
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Phemie
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NO! A convalidation is not simply a blessing, it’s a marriage ceremony. The couple is prepared for marriage and exchange consent in front of witnesses. That’s not simply a “blessing”. The are not considered validly married before that happens.
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Monica83
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They would have to validate their marriage in a Catholic church. I have actually heard of this happening.
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CRM_Brother
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You’re right, it is a marriage ceremony. However, the marriage is also valid with regards to the primordial sacrament of marriage before the convalidation takes place.It is simply recognized as valid in the Church at the Convalidation. This is why you need an annulment of even a civil marriage before seeking a remarriage in the Church.
I already said that witnesses were required even for a marriage to take place.
Note that the explanation of Convalidation in the title is “Blessing Your Civil Marriage”. It says that the marriage “Isn’t valid in the eyes of the Church” however, it still recognizes that a marriage took place. The validity is a natural validity. All of the other sacraments were only valid as sacraments after Christ. Marriage, however, goes all the way back to Genesis as a primordial sacrament in which God is present. Christ does not institute marriage at the wedding of Cana, but rather blesses it with his presence. So too does the priest bless the marriage and Christ personally enters into the Marriage where before was only the primordial presence of God instituted in the act through Creation.
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Phemie
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There is no presumption of validity if the marriage of a Catholic was civil only, unless a dispensation had been granted. Civil marriages of Catholics where there is no dispensation do not NEED to be sent to the Tribunal. It can be dealt with by the priest during the prenuptial investigation and I know cases where that was done. That said, it’s true that most dioceses in North America will submit the documents to the Tribunal but that’s not an annulment per se since there is only paperwork involved.
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SuscipeMeDomine
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@crm_brother A couple that is validly married and then becomes Catholic does not do anything with regard to their marriage. It is already valid and that’s the end of it.
A convalidation is used to make an invalid marriage valid. See the OP. In the case of a Catholic not married according to Catholic form or with a dispensation, the marriage is invalid. If the couple wanted to return to the practice of the Catholic faith, their marriage would have to be convalidated, i.e., made valid.
A convalidation is used to make an invalid marriage valid. See the OP. In the case of a Catholic not married according to Catholic form or with a dispensation, the marriage is invalid. If the couple wanted to return to the practice of the Catholic faith, their marriage would have to be convalidated, i.e., made valid.
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CRM_Brother
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My statements were originally in respose to the proposal that it is the priest that actually marries the couple. This is the Orthodox view of the Sacrament, but not the Catholic. It had then devolved into an argument between canonical validity and theological validity of the primordial nature of the sacrament.
Which type of validity are you speaking of, canonical or primordial? You cannot have a canonically valid marriage outside of the Church by definition as canon law is only binding for those belonging to the Church. The only way the marriage could be canonically valid before someone becoming Catholic is if one of the couple is already Catholic and the other converts later. If you are speaking of primordial validity, then you still need a convalidation.
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CRM_Brother
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I was speaking of a person married civily to someone other than his or her intended spouse and received a divorce before seeking marriage in the Church. The annulment of the civil mariage is still needed.
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Phemie
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It depends on whether the person seeking marriage in the Church was Catholic at the time of the first civil marriage and the circumstances of that first marriage.
If either or both parties were Catholic and married civilly without a dispensation the marriage enjoyed no presumption of validity. No annulment is necessary to marry another person in the Church.
If the neither party was Catholic at the time of the first marriage then, yes, the marriage was presumed valid and a decree of nullity is required for the person to marry someone else in the Church.
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Phemie
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The marriage of two non-Catholics is presumed valid by the Catholic Church as long was there were no impediments to the marriage (a previous bond, close kinship, etc.). It doesn’t matter if that marriage was celebrated in a church or at city hall. If both are baptized it’s a sacramental marriage. That said, the marriage of two Orthodox would have to be recognized as valid by their Church for the Catholic Church to consider it valid.My statements were originally in respose to the proposal that it is the priest that actually marries the couple. This is the Orthodox view of the Sacrament, but not the Catholic. It had then devolved into an argument between canonical validity and theological validity of the primordial nature of the sacrament.
SuscipeMeDomine:
Which type of validity are you speaking of, canonical or primordial? You cannot have a canonically valid marriage outside of the Church by definition as canon law is only binding for those belonging to the Church. The only way the marriage could be canonically valid before someone becoming Catholic is if one of the couple is already Catholic and the other converts later. If you are speaking of primordial validity, then you still need a convalidation.
If one or both desire to become Catholic there is no need for them to have the marriage convalidated because their marriage is already valid. They can, upon converting, receive the Nuptial Blessing, but that’s not a convalidation.
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1ke
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Actually this is not true. Catholics who attempt marriage civilly without dispensation attempt marriage invalidly. There is no marriage.
Convalidation IS the exchange of valid consent in Catholic form. It IS the marriage.
This is not true. There is no decree of nullity, no tribunal investigation when a Catholic has an invalid civil marriage. There is no marriage. There is no presumption of validity. There is nothing decree of nullity.
This is not correct.
A marriage is valid or not.
The terms natural and sacramental apply only to valid marriages— those involving one or more unbaptized people (natural) or two baptized people (sacramental).
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SuscipeMeDomine
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You seem to be claiming that the Catholic Church does not recognize the marriages of non-Catholics and that’s simply not true.
For example, if a Catholic wants to marry a divorced Protestant, the Protestant must first seek a declaration of nullity. The Church believes that person is validly married to his or her ex-spouse unless it is shown otherwise. Even though the person is not and never has been Catholic, their marriage is presumed valid.
Married non-Catholics who come into the Church will discuss their marriage with the pastor or RCIA director to see if there are any issues to be resolved. Assuming it is the first marriage for both parties, nothing more needs to be done. Their valid marriage remains valid.
I think you may be using the terms canonical and primordial to mean sacramental and natural.
A valid marriage.(recognized my the Catholic Church) can be either natural or sacramental. If one or both parties are unbaptized, it is a natural marriage. If both parties are baptized it is a sacramental marriage.
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TheLittleLady
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Actually, with the proper dispensation for Catholic, or for any baptized couple who are non-Catholic and free to marry, it very much can.
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Vico
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CatechismTK421:
I’d welcome a correction here, but I don’t think you can sin by negligence. The standard is actually knowledge, not what you ought to know.
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StephenBales
Guest
I’ve no idea whether it’s considered sinful or invalid, but as a Baptist making his way to the fullness of the Christian faith, that being the CC, I have a question. Being two Christians who are already there… why in the world would they choose something else??
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Dhc8_Type
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So when the pope married the flight attendants on board the flight that’s not a valid marriage?
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Kris34
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There is some other vow exchange that takes place at a different place and time.
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Kris34
Guest
All bets are off when the Holy Father is involved. That is why it made news.
By the way the follow up news is important. The couple actually were supposed to marry in the church so were prepared but there was an earthquake. So they married civilly. The wedding on the plane was NOT the marriage service but A marriage service. They had been to confession the groom saw the Pope on a prior flight his bride wasn’t on. It wasn’t spontaneously done. He simply validated a marriage in the eyes of the church of the couple.
By the way the follow up news is important. The couple actually were supposed to marry in the church so were prepared but there was an earthquake. So they married civilly. The wedding on the plane was NOT the marriage service but A marriage service. They had been to confession the groom saw the Pope on a prior flight his bride wasn’t on. It wasn’t spontaneously done. He simply validated a marriage in the eyes of the church of the couple.
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