Marriage outside catholic church is considered an invalid marriage?

[KathleenElsie]

Yes this is the case. Ok that explains that then. But it still makes no sense, legally they were considered married. Dad left the catholic church !

As a baptized Catholic he was obligated to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. Legal marriage is not the same as sacramental marriage for Catholics. One is civil and the other is before God.

 

[Peter_J]

Why did you answer a non confrontational question with a confrontational answer?

Welcome to the internet.

 

[Peter_J]

I think you have some things incorrect. A Catholic who marries outside the Catholic Church, without their Bishops permission, is invalidly married. It would be incorrect to say all marriages of Catholics outside the Church are invalid. Most marriages of non-Catholics are considered valid. In all cases all must be free to marry (not maried to someone else in a prior marriage) and capable of marriage. In Catholic thought all marriages are considered valid until proven otherwise.

So in the case of “a Catholic who marries outside the Catholic Church, without their Bishop’s permission”, do those facts constitute proof that the marriage is invalid? Or is “proof” more complicated than that?

 

[Phemie]

So in the case of “a Catholic who marries outside the Catholic Church, without their Bishop’s permission”, do those facts constitute proof that the marriage is invalid? Or is “proof” more complicated than that?

Actually, that marriage is NOT presumed VALID. Depending on the bishop, t may not even be submitted to the Tribunal for a ruling. Our bishop only requires that the priest record all the details that would prove lack of form.

 

[SMHW]

Actually, that marriage is NOT presumed VALID. Depending on the bishop, t may not even be submitted to the Tribunal for a ruling. Our bishop only requires that the priest record all the details that would prove lack of form.

But a key point is that the details to demonstrate lack of form must be submitted.

Anytime there was a marriage that ends due to death or divorce, the details of that marriage must be divulged and any necessary documents provided.

 

[Phemie]

But a key point is that the details to demonstrate lack of form must be submitted.

Oh, definitely. It just doesn’t have to be done through the Marriage Tribunal, although many if not most bishops will go that route.

Anytime there was a marriage that ends due to death or divorce, the details of that marriage must be divulged and any necessary documents provided.

Oh yes, the death certificate of a late spouse must always be presented or the register verified to ascertain that the person attempting marriage is free to do so.

Of course since a decree of nullity cannot be applied for without a prior divorce that document would be necessary also.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

So in the case of “a Catholic who marries outside the Catholic Church, without their Bishop’s permission”, do those facts constitute proof that the marriage is invalid? Or is “proof” more complicated than that?

Most of us have no authority to judge anyone’s Marriage. Pastors, Bishops, Tribunal members, some Deacons are given that authority. An individual person can make a judgment of their own Marriage and then seek the assistance of the Church to correct the situation.

 

[carl_mary]

hi, greetings.

after having read the previous interventions i am completely lost. Can some authorised person clear the air for us on the following.:

Is a religious marriage between 2 non christians recognised by the CC . If now, the couple divorces and one of the partners wishes to marry a catholic in the Chuch … Will he/she have to submit a request for anullment before they can receive the sacrament of matrimony.

some protestant churches offers what is known as a blessing to ‘civilly’ married couples . Is this act considered by the CC as a valid marriage and if ever the couple separates and one of the partners decides later to marry a catholic , can this marriage be acceptable to the CC.

god bless
carl

 

[Phemie]

hi, greetings.

after having read the previous interventions i am completely lost. Can some authorised person clear the air for us on the following.:

Is a religious marriage between 2 non christians recognised by the CC .
YES
If now, the couple divorces and one of the partners wishes to marry a catholic in the Chuch … Will he/she have to submit a request for anullment before they can receive the sacrament of matrimony.

YES

some protestant churches offers what is known as a blessing to ‘civilly’ married couples . Is this act considered by the CC as a valid marriage

The civil marriage of non-Catholics is already considered valid without the blessing you speak of.

and if ever the couple separates and one of the partners decides later to marry a catholic , can this marriage be acceptable to the CC.

Not without a decree of nullity.

god bless
carl

 

[carl_mary]

hi Phemie,

Thanks for your clear answers.

If you will allow me I would like to add an extra questions to question no. 2.

If one of the civilly married couple is a Catholic and the partner is a non cathoilc Christian , will the church still consider the blessing and the civil marriage to be a valid one.

This issue is a very complex one indeed. Let me share with you a case I personally know. One of my employees is a catholic He was raised in a Catholic Orphanage , having lost his parents while he was still young. Coming from this "background’ it was not easy for him to get married. So he civilly married , some 25 years ago, a non catholic christian divorcee with 2 children from her previous marriage, though he wanted so much at that time to receive the sacrament of marriage, A successful marriage, good family life, 3 nice kids, all happily married , and grand parents too. He is not happy to have to stay away from the sacraments. He wants so much to receive the Holy communion . I sent him to the parish priest. No solution in sight. Very sad case.

God Bless

carl

 

[KathleenElsie]

But a key point is that the details to demonstrate lack of form must be submitted.

Anytime there was a marriage that ends due to death or divorce, the details of that marriage must be divulged and any necessary documents provided.

The documents are not kept, not is the information on record. If there is to be a marriage in the Catholic Church that is the only information available even to other parishes if you move.

 

[Phemie]

hi Phemie,

Thanks for your clear answers.

If you will allow me I would like to add an extra questions to question no. 2.

If one of the civilly married couple is a Catholic and the partner is a non cathoilc Christian , will the church still consider the blessing and the civil marriage to be a valid one.

As a rule, NO.

This issue is a very complex one indeed. Let me share with you a case I personally know. One of my employees is a catholic He was raised in a Catholic Orphanage , having lost his parents while he was still young. Coming from this "background’ it was not easy for him to get married. So he civilly married , some 25 years ago, a non catholic christian divorcee with 2 children from her previous marriage, though he wanted so much at that time to receive the sacrament of marriage,

The first reason why the Church would not consider this marriage valid: As far as the Church is concerned, this woman was not free to marry as she is still married to her first husband.

A successful marriage, good family life, 3 nice kids, all happily married , and grand parents too. He is not happy to have to stay away from the sacraments. He wants so much to receive the Holy communion . I sent him to the parish priest. No solution in sight. Very sad case.

In this case he’s not the one who can do anything.

She’s the one who would have to petition the Church for a decree of nullity. If her first marriage was determined to not be valid, she would then be able to marry this man, in the Catholic Church, and he would then be able to receive the sacraments.

 

[Phemie]

The documents are not kept, not is the information on record. If there is to be a marriage in the Catholic Church that is the only information available even to other parishes if you move.

Not sure what you mean by that.

If a widow presents to get married in the Church she must present a certificate of death to prove her husband died. This document will be placed with all the other documents (her & her prospective husband’s certificate of Baptism, Foccus test results, etc) in the pre-nuptial investigation file and kept on record at the marrying parish.

 

[SMHW]

The documents are not kept, not is the information on record. If there is to be a marriage in the Catholic Church that is the only information available even to other parishes if you move.

To show lack of form, a Catholic who was previously married and then divorced would have to supply the documents stating that they were married by a justice of the peace, some non-Catholic Church, or wherever and then show that the marriage was NOT noted with the baptismal record like a Catholic marriage should be.

That’s what I meant by provide documentation.

Also a person, who was previously married but the spouse died, would have to provide a death certificate for the former spouse if the survivor wants to marry in a Catholic Church.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Not sure what you mean by that.

If a widow presents to get married in the Church she must present a certificate of death to prove her husband died. This document will be placed with all the other documents (her & her prospective husband’s certificate of Baptism, Foccus test results, etc) in the pre-nuptial investigation file and kept on record at the marrying parish.

A widow or widower are different if they were in a valid marriage. So yes there would be copies of the death certificate on file at the place of the second marriage or the home parish where they were baptized.

A “lack of form” is not on file as there was never a valid marriage. In the eyes of the church if you marry in the church this is considered your first and only marriage. Only the state is interested in the civil legal papers. The civil papers are kept as in the license, baptism papers and any others the civil authorities require of any couple.

 

[Phemie]

A widow or widower are different if they were in a valid marriage. So yes there would be copies of the death certificate on file at the place of the second marriage or the home parish where they were baptized.

A “lack of form” is not on file as there was never a valid marriage. In the eyes of the church if you marry in the church this is considered your first and only marriage. Only the state is interested in the civil legal papers. The civil papers are kept as in the license, baptism papers and any others the civil authorities require of any couple.

Let me give you an example. A woman in our parish had married another Catholic in a non-Catholic Church. Later she got a divorce. She brought in her marriage certificate, her divorce papers, the priest searched the diocese for record of a dispensation for lack of form. None was found. This was all documented and the person was permitted to marry in the Catholic Church. This is now a permanent record in our parish.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Let me give you an example. A woman in our parish had married another Catholic in a non-Catholic Church. Later she got a divorce. She brought in her marriage certificate, her divorce papers, the priest searched the diocese for record of a dispensation for lack of form. None was found. This was all documented and the person was permitted to marry in the Catholic Church. This is now a permanent record in our parish.

Not the situation here. The germinate record in the parish here has has the certificate of marriage with the baptism and confirmation records. Maybe it differs from diocese to diocese. Also a record of the sacramental marriage is sent to the parish you were baptized in for their records.

 

[puzzleannie]

I am not sure about the annulment being required in all instances. If the two non-Catholics were married by a JP, or Civil authority, I don’t believe the marriage is recognized as such by the Catholic Church. To be in a recognized valid marriage, I believe both parties must be babtized and married in a church. Very confusing

simply not true, please do not comment unless you know for a fact you are stating the truth.

 

[Phemie]

Not the situation here. The germinate record in the parish here has has the certificate of marriage with the baptism and confirmation records. Maybe it differs from diocese to diocese. Also a record of the sacramental marriage is sent to the parish you were baptized in for their records.

When the priest does a pre-nuptial investigation, all the documents that are necessary (bapt. cert., decree of nullity, etc) are put in with the pre-nup papers. That pre-nuptial investigation remains on file in the parish where the marriage is celebrated – and if the couple is going to be married in another parish we keep a photocopy of those records and forward the originals. If ever this couple divorces and one or the other petitions for a decree of nullity one of the first things that’s going to be looked at is the pre-nup investigation to see if there is anything in there that can support the validity or invalidity of the marriage.

Obviously the marriage is recorded in the Register of Marriage and in the Register of Baptism if such is registered in the parish and yes, we do send notice of marriage to the baptismal parish.

Now, if the couple prepares for marriage in our parish and then get a dispensation from canonical form, they are the ones responsible for notifying the parish once the marriage has been celebrated in the non-Catholic church or in front of the JP. A copy of that certificate will be entered in the pre-nup file and the marriage will be entered in our Register of Marriage.

 

[1ke]

If one of the civilly married couple is a Catholic and the partner is a non cathoilc Christian , will the church still consider the blessing and the civil marriage to be a valid one.

A Catholic is required to marry in the Catholic form. Only if the Catholic received the proper permissions to marry outside the Catholic form would it be valid. So, without such permission this would be an invalid marriage.

One of my employees is a catholic He was raised in a Catholic Orphanage , having lost his parents while he was still young. Coming from this "background’ it was not easy for him to get married.

I don’t see how his background would be relevant or why it would be “not easy” for him to get married in the Catholic Church.

The requirements for him would be no different than any other Catholic in the world.

So he civilly married , some 25 years ago, a non catholic christian divorcee with 2 children from her previous marriage, though he wanted so much at that time to receive the sacrament of marriage,

Well, this would be why he could not marry in the Church: he wanted to marry someone who was already married!

He chose to ignore the marriage laws of the Church. That’s serious.

A successful marriage, good family life, 3 nice kids, all happily married , and grand parents too. He is not happy to have to stay away from the sacraments

He knew the consequences for choosing to go against God’s law regarding marriage.

He wants so much to receive the Holy communion .

Then the divorced non-Catholic needs to petition for a decree of nullity. If it is granted, they can have their marriage convalidated. If it is not, he has a much tougher decision ahead of him.

I sent him to the parish priest. No solution in sight. Very sad case.

A sad case, but one of his own making.

There are solutions, they may not be to his liking. Putting God first can come at a steep price.