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chris_molter
Guest
Once again proving that Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism
(ba-dum-ching!)
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(ba-dum-ching!)
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thomasf
Guest
This right here is the root of your problems in not understanding the church. No where does God ever say âbe a good person and the rest will work itself out.â In fact, God asks a lot of us, and always has, in order to gain salvation. And He left the catholic church on earth to help us gain that salvation. Thereâs a LOT more to it than being a good person, and the rest of the story is in the catholic church.
And in fact, Jesus was asked this very question in the bible. Do you know what He had to say?
" 16 Now someone approached him and said, âTeacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?â
17
He answered him, âWhy do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.â Matthew 19.
The only one who is good is God in heaven. As Jesus later said when asked about salvation:
" 26 For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible."
Being good cannot get you salvation. Following God and His church can. IMO, this alone is reason enough to take a minute and find out why the church requires us to get married in the presence of the eucharist, in a church, as a sacrament. Take a day to speak to a priest about it and explore the options. At the very least, you can go ahead with your ceremony and get the marriage convalidated after.
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Roblox84
Guest
In my opinion, not that it matters I think it would be fine to marry like that. As you probably know a lot of the Catholic requirements are put in place by bishops or past popes in order to keep people from having the slightest chance of veering away from the Church.
Look at it this way, if youâre a Catholic living in say, a Muslim nation do you think that God would actually make you fly across the world to find a Catholic Church to marry in?
So, like I said these restrictions on things like children having to be brought up in the faith, marriage, etc⌠are just there for the protection of your faith and of the faith as a whole. So it is really up to you.
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mswood
Guest
Your opinion is fine so long as the OP doesnât care if her marriage is considered valid in the Catholic Church or not.
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thomasf
Guest
First off, they arenât restrictions. They are requirements. Marriage in the Catholic church is a sacrament and one must follow the requirements of that sacrament if they want to stay within the church. Theyâre not trivial requirements made up by bishops or priests in the past. Jesus made marriage a sacrament when he attended the wedding in Cana and spoke extensively on the sacredness of joining a man and woman together. He made it pretty clear. People just donât want to listen.
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EasterJoy
Guest
If it didnât matter what you thought, he wouldnât have asked youâŚbut he did.
What is this about God requiring someone to fly across the world to marry, though? That is a made-up example, and not a fair one.
A Catholic may sometimes get permission from a bishop to marry in a non-Catholic church even when a Catholic church is fully available. It depends on the circumstances. The OP implies that heâs marrying outside his parish church because the building wasnât available on the weekend that he and his fiance had picked out. In other words, he seems almost as if he thinks the Church is no more than one of many providers of a nice setting for his familyâs private celebration. His parish is not available when he would like it to be. Well, he belongs to a church, he belongs to a country club, if the church isnât available for the weekend he wants, go with the country club. I could be wrong, but it seems as if it is all the same to him.
Likewise, I am puzzled by your use of phrases such as âin order to keep people from having the slightest chance of veering away from the Churchâ and âare just there for the protection of your faith and of the faith as a wholeâ. Are you implying that it is not the responsibility of a bishop to protect the faith of the Catholics in his care? That it doesnât matter if a Catholic remains in communion with the Church or not or if he avails himself of the life of the Church through the sacraments or not? That it doesnât matter if a parent ever gets around to teaching his children the commandments or how to pray or how to actually live as part of the Body of Christ? That it is perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to see no difference whatsoever between celebrating the sacraments in a literal sanctuary and at a country club?
It would appear that his local parish is only one among the many social groups he chooses to belongs, no more or less. It is notâapparently, and I hope I read him absolutely incorrectlyâanything remotely like an integral part of his life. I find it astonishing that a Catholic would expect a priest or bishop not to find anything disturbing about that. Do you think these men, all intellectually capable of professional success in the secular world, gave up wife and family and home and career in order to give their lives over to an inconsequential nicety of life?
If nothing else, the OP might realize that when he loses his money or disgraces himself in some way and the country club will have none of him, the parish will still have him. There is something going on there more than a shared interest in golf, tennis, and monetary success. That is well worth looking into, should he decide he has the time.
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blaskoman
Guest
OP is looking at Catholicism the wrong way. Because the OP is a non-practicing catholic, there is much that she is lacking in terms of basic catholic teaching and practice. The bottom line is that having true faith in the catholic faith requires an all out effortâthere can be no wavering on church requirements (ie catholic marriage dispensations). Once OP comes back to the Church, will she realize what sheâs been missing out on.
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Roblox84
Guest
That is precisely what I meant. To me these are, I guess if you want to call them requirements given by the Church and a responsibility given onto the bishop to protect the Catholics under his wing. And that he doesnât want even the slightest possibility of a Catholic to run astray from the Church sacraments. This is just why I believe the Church is so strict on all these things.
I also think there are many other things that come into play at a wedding, such as bridal tradition where the groom is married in the brides Church or I guess where ever she picks. And the bride is the one paying for the wedding so just out of respect it wouldnât be right to command where a wedding should be, but all that being said I guess if you need a Catholic Church wedding as a Catholic you only marry a Catholic.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
What are the chances of a failed marriage if the OP follows your advice?
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kage_ar
Guest
Marriages (in the civil sense) that are valid are far less likely to fail than those that are invalid. Heck, invalid marriage are failed from the beginning.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
I would appreciate some documented numbers. Please include who decided what was invalid.
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kage_ar
Guest
Did I claim to be quoting a study or statistics?
The only validity that matters is Godâs validity.
Those in sin - in an invalid âmarriageâ are blocked from receiving the grace of God.
Those who are in valid marriages are able then then have a sacramental marriage, if both are Baptized, and that means God pours down graces.
Invaild is epic fail - null - non-existant - -
This is basic Christianity 101.
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joandarc2008
Guest
Your example is here is flawed as in this case someone could receive dispensation to have their marriage done by a Priest from a Church that believes in Aposolic Succession - ie Byzantine Orthodox in your example would be the Church of Choice due to itâs geographic locaton.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
still waiting
Actually basic christianity includes the book of Genesis. Please explain who does the blocking since you claim Godâs validity is all that matters. If God authored Genesis and God does not block them who blocks them? In Genesis a single man a single woman are put together by God not the Catholic Church. In Catholic Church teachings no where does it say the Church makes marriage, puts men and woman together, or anything similar. So who are you to cast failure on the OP?
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jetplane1960
Guest
A marriage MADE IN HEAVEN is what you want to aim for â that is, a marriage where God is not just invited as a guest, but invited to participate in your union â not just during the ceremony but throughout the rest of your life on earth! Itâs distressing enough to hear of so many Catholic couples ending up in divorce; what more with couples of different faiths. That is not to say, there arenât marriages between Catholics and non-Catholics that have survived. The fact that you are asking questions tells me that you are being prompted by the Holy Spirit to come home to Mother Church. Heed that prompting â go and ask the questions NOW. Do not wait after the marriage thinking that you and your future wife can work out the details later. I truly believe that matters of faith need to be resolved first before you contemplate marriage. A lot of wars fought came about as a result of religious differences; so does in marriage. If itâs important to you (and I pray that it is), ask the questions. The good Lord did not give us the Ten Commandments just to make our lives uncomfortable; the Ten Commandments is our ticket to eternal life. And Jesus gave us the Beatitudes as a booster shot! If we love God, why wouldnât we want to be with Him? And Jesus, in His immense love us, made sure that we will not be left on our own to dissect His teachings and interpret it in anyway we want. Saint Peter and the succession of Popes that weâve had ensured that we will have One Truth.
So, pleaseâŚdo ask your pastorâŚespecially now that you have been informed. God Bless youâŚ
So, pleaseâŚdo ask your pastorâŚespecially now that you have been informed. God Bless youâŚ
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CMatt25
Guest
OP, see my post here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6388256&postcount=48
I have nothing more to say. Except may God bless you and your future wife greatly throughout your marriage. May you both lIve always in peace and love. And I wish you a beautiful outdoor ceremony where God will truly be present.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6388256&postcount=48
I have nothing more to say. Except may God bless you and your future wife greatly throughout your marriage. May you both lIve always in peace and love. And I wish you a beautiful outdoor ceremony where God will truly be present.
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joandarc2008
Guest
Here is what his post said:
Of course what he doesnât mention are the following things:
- If the couple could actually make a monetary tithing to the Church or could not which is one of the five requirements for Catholic living
- If the couple could not if the couple expressed this to the Priest in a respectful manner or if they just walked out in a huff and allowed pride to get between them ad their faith.
- If the Priest had other issues - not all priests are created equal they are humans with a vocational sacrament - not immortals with human sacrament.
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EasterJoy
Guest
The post you refer to includes the phrase âmy Churchâ, which brings to mind a quote that applies to this entire conversation, from CS Lewisâ book, The Screwtape Letters (boldface mine, obviously). For those of you not familiar with the book, it is written as a series of letters from a senior demon to a junior tempter, on the subject of how to capture a human soul for Hell:
*âŚThe sense of ownership in general is always to be encouraged. The humans are always putting up claims to ownership which sound equally funny in Heaven and in Hell and we must keep them doing so. Much of the modern resistance to chastity comes from menâs belief that they âownâ their bodiesâthose vast and perilous estates, pulsating with the energy that made the worlds, in which they find themselves without their consent and from which they are ejected at the pleasure of Another! It is as if a royal child whom his father has placed, for loveâs sake, in titular command of some great province, under the real rule of wise counsellors, should come to fancy he really owns the cities, the forests, and the corn, in the same way as he owns the bricks on the nursery floor. We produce this sense of ownership not only by pride but by confusion. We teach them not to notice the different senses of the possessive pronounâthe finely graded differences that run from âmy bootsâ through âmy dogâ, âmy servantâ, âmy wifeâ, âmy fatherâ, âmy masterâ and âmy countryâ, to âmy Godâ. They can be taught to reduce all these senses to that of âmy bootsâ, the âmyâ of ownership. Even in the nursery a child can be taught to mean by âmy Teddy-bearâ not the old imagined recipient of affection to whom it stands in a special relation (for that is what the Enemy will teach them to mean if we are not careful) but âthe bear I can pull to pieces if I likeâ. And at the other end of the scale, we have taught men to say âMy Godâ in a sense not really very different from âMy bootsâ, meaning âThe God on whom I have a claim for my distinguished services and whom I exploit from the pulpitâthe God I have done a corner inâ. And all the time the joke is that the word âMineâ in its fully possessive sense cannot be uttered by a human being about anything. In he long run either Our Father or the Enemy will say âMineâ of each thing that exists, and specially of each man. They will find out in the end, never fear, to whom their time, their souls, and their bodies really belongâcertainly not to them, whatever happens. At present the Enemy says âMineâ of everything on the pedantic, legalistic ground that He made it: Our Father hopes in the end to say âMineâ of all things on the more realistic and dynamic ground of conquest,
Your affectionate uncle,
SCREWTAPE
*
Which brings up three points:
- Yes, it is repugnant when anyone in the Church, the clergy in particular, uses their duty to evangelize and especially the priestly duty to dispense the sacraments to the faithful as a way to control or profit from others, as if they owned God, and not the other way around. I canât speak to the instance you describe, since neither you nor I were there, but these things do happen, and they are a tragic source of scandal.
- Our groom-to-be might do well to realize that neither his life nor his body belong to him. Both belong to God. His bride-to-be belongs to God. Their married life will go far better if they decide to make their lives reflect that.
- CMatt25, when you say âmy Churchâ, which do you mean, as Lewis might put it: â* theâŚrecipient of affection to whom I stand in a special relationâ or âthe Church I can pull to pieces if I likeâ*?
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CMatt25
Guest
First of all no one walked out in a huff. The priests representing the Church obviously very much had an issue. I did not cut and paste to save space so I provided the link. And if you donât believe as a Catholic and a Christian that Godâs Spirit can be at an outdoor wedding, then I guess that is what you believe.
But donât personally attack my knowledge of something that you know nothing about. As was done to me on the thread you copied from. Were any of you there? Did you know the couple? No. But right away people jump to the false assumption that somehow it is I who do not know what I am talking about. Not the priests at first. It had to be me. Fortunately I do not give you power over me. But such hurtful personal attacks do nothing to keep people within the Church. And I only pray you will someday understand this. God bless you all and peace.
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joandarc2008
Guest
There is a big difference between God being present and God being a part of the Sacrament as opposed to just a witness to it. This is central to Roman Catholic/Orthodox belief. Central. It is one of the fundamental differences between the Orthodox and Protestants and has to do with Apostolic Succession, Transubstantiation, and Ordination. Ordination of Anglican Priest or Episcopal Priest is not recognzied as they do not have link to Apostolic Succession an therefore lack the Grace from Christ himself to Ordain and therefore a wedding of Catholic/Orthodox believer with one of these Priests is simply a play.** It is invalid. ** It is a closed mind that Satan needs to lead one from the Path of Light. You would do well to educate yourself on these topics - If you do not eblieve them then you do not believe the fundamentals of the Faith and you should act accordingly and find one that you do and quit arguing these point as they are the fundamentals of what we believe. And by the way - if someone wants to have a wedding elsewhere they can receive dispensation and have a vaid sacrament with an ordained Priest they just need ot keep an open mind just like my parents did and be willing to remember this is not Burger King.
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